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Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup  (Read 9393 times)

Offline Chairboy

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #450 on: May 27, 2006, 12:18:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Guessing you don't like people saying you believe there is no God. ;)
You're right, Arlo, I don't like people misrepresenting me.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Leslie

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #451 on: May 27, 2006, 12:53:09 AM »
Well, you did submit a cartoon that is supposed to be what Thomas Jefferson had in mind.  Is Jefferson the end-all, be-all authority of athiesm in the US?




Les
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Offline Chairboy

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #452 on: May 27, 2006, 01:00:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
Well, you did submit a cartoon that is supposed to be what Thomas Jefferson had in mind.  Is Jefferson the end-all, be-all authority of athiesm in the US?
I don't think so, why?  He's one of the founding fathers of my country, and I think he said something relevant.  Keep in mind, the original purpose of the thread was to discuss the confluence of religion, atheism, and government.  The comic was relevant to that, but the thread drifted off course a bit.  No worries, it's still a good conversation.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Arlo

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #453 on: May 27, 2006, 01:01:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
You're right, Arlo, I don't like people misrepresenting me.


And what, exactly ... pray tell ;) .... is the necessity of your pressing need to personally distinguish "belief in no God" with "no belief in God" again? Is it just to attempt to avoid the supposed pitfall of Atheism being legally considered one of many beliefs that all citizens in this nation are free to embrace (and therefore just as prone to the restrictions of Government establishing it over any other belief)? :D

Because if that's all, then I think it serves well to illustrate your mindset regarding this thread as well as any of the others you've started relating to such. For "belief in no God" and "no belief in God" are indeed equivalent statements linguistically, philosophically and practically. :aok
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Offline Chairboy

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #454 on: May 27, 2006, 01:06:15 AM »
Maybe I can explain the difference some other way.  

Question: Do you believe that my dog is smart?

If you answer yes, then you believe it's smart.
If you answer no, then you believe it is not smart.

But wait...   you've never met my dog, I've never written anything about how smart or dumb it is here.  Logically, you would not have an opinion.  Is that the same as believing my dog is not smart?  Of course not.

That, my friend, is the third option.  "I do not have a belief as to how smart your dog is."  Equally, I have no belief as to the existance of god.
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Offline Hangtime

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #455 on: May 27, 2006, 01:53:21 AM »
depends on who yah ask.

I'd guess that a theist would consider any dog that's owned by an agnostic that thinks he's atheist to be pretty ****in stupid.

;)
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Offline Leslie

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #456 on: May 27, 2006, 02:20:15 AM »
I have a hard time when it comes to people who don't believe in God.  Philosophically that is.  I have experienced so many times when he helped me survive, there has to be a God.:D



Les
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Offline Hap

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #457 on: May 27, 2006, 07:50:05 AM »
The postion, esp philosophically, Leslie is untenable.  God is more real than myself.  And I too, daily, experience his presence and providential care.  Mysteries abound therin.  What a wonder it all is.  Amazing love.  

hap
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Offline Leslie

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #458 on: May 27, 2006, 07:59:51 AM »
Alas, all my love is gone after 27 years of work with no regognition and little pay.  I doubt you could last that long before you gave up.  Then again, you probably aren't used to doing difficult things all the time, so have at it.  I stay within my comfort zone most of the time.

You mention love.  Show some.







Les
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Offline moot

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #459 on: May 27, 2006, 08:04:14 AM »
Arguing and faith are mutually exclusive.. what were you expecting?
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Offline wrag

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #460 on: May 27, 2006, 08:36:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
No, you do not have it right, wrag.

I lack theistic belief.  I don't assert that god exists because I just don't have any context.  If the white haired guy showed up shooting lightning bolts and saying "I am god" and made a good case for it, then i guess there's a god.  But until then, I guess I don't really have an opinion.  I'm lacking religious belief.

What is so hard to understand about this?

:beating head on table:


What is it about the me saying an atheist believes there is no god that you have a problem with?

That sure sounds to me like you have no theistic belief?

IMHO one can be theistic ( believe there is a god or something ) and NOT be religious.  The 2 do NOT go hand and hand IMHO.

Further IMHO one can have a religious belief and NOT believe in any god but in umm.. say astrology, or a toss of the coin or ...  something.  Even going so far as to allow it to control their daily existance.  Although I'm sure someone will claim the stars are their gods or the coin is their god or the luck of the draw or something.

People can and do believe in some odd things to the degree that it can become much like a relgion to them IMHO.

So my statement made considerable sense to me even if it didn't to you.

And what exactly makes you think the guy would have to have white hair?  Isn't Buddha bald?  Doesn't the greenman refered to by the druids have green hair?

And why lightining bolts?  Why not beams of burning light?  Or a fiery sword? Or geysers of nasty green snot for that matter?

Have you considered taking tylenol for that headache?
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Offline Leslie

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« Reply #461 on: May 27, 2006, 08:46:54 AM »
A good argument always wins.  Not so, faith.  People gamble big time with faith.  But it's part of the big picture and is unarguable.  Doesn't matter.  If something is, it is.  Believe in it or not.  Maybe we'll find out one day.  I'm sure it will be like nothing we thought of or could even imagine.  On the good side.


Les
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #462 on: May 27, 2006, 10:24:10 AM »
wrag has stated my position on god fairly well.   I believe in god but am not religious.... some religion may be entirely correct but I am in no position to judge.

nash and chair.... lets say that chair and, to some extent... subaru...  are correct about the defenition of athiest...  that it is simply someone who lacks belief in god....

How then would you define agnostic?   And as arlo says.... why be so insistant on being an athiest.... would not agnostic do as well and be much more accurate?

I think that their are plenty of hard core athiests that would be insulted by your watering down of their belief because..... for most athiests... it is a VERY strong faith based belief that there is no god.

lazs
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Offline Arlo

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #463 on: May 27, 2006, 03:51:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Maybe I can explain the difference some other way.  

Question: Do you believe that my dog is smart?

If you answer yes, then you believe it's smart.
If you answer no, then you believe it is not smart.

But wait...   you've never met my dog, I've never written anything about how smart or dumb it is here.  Logically, you would not have an opinion.  Is that the same as believing my dog is not smart?  Of course not.

That, my friend, is the third option.  "I do not have a belief as to how smart your dog is."  Equally, I have no belief as to the existance of god.


Not saying, though it should, that my choice to believe your dog is or is not smart, without firsthand knowledge, is a belief. If I dwell upon such.

You've obviously dwelt upon the existance of God (as well as religion, in general). And that entails belief about things you lack first hand knowledge of yet feel compelled to express opinion on. For, indeed, you do have an opinion ... and you express it here. Often. If you really didn't have an opinion, you wouldn't be sharing it so much. Though expression of opinion is fine (within TOS guidelines*), if you don't mind opinion shared back* that doesn't  always agree. If you're wanting to convince me about the superiority of Atheism over any other belief, the U.S. government's role in establishing Christianity as a state religion or their role in oppressing Atheists, guess you'll just have to try harder. Not that I think that's possible, but it's not working so far. ;)

("Slippery slope" my arse. Most of what militant Atheists have a cow over has been that way since long before they were hatched. And those "threats" managed not to actually threaten their "non-belief" nor their practice, freely and legally, thereof.):aok
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 04:15:43 PM by Arlo »
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Offline Vulcan

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #464 on: May 27, 2006, 06:08:09 PM »
Chairboy... sorry to do this mate but:

athiesm does not mean a lack of religious beliefs. Buddhists can be athiests. Buddha is not a god, superhuman, etc.

I not only do not believe in a god, I believe there is no possibility of one existing.

HOWEVER... this is not a leap of faith, I base this on:
 - physical impossibilities, did time exist before the universe existed for example? (theres many more)
 - inconsistancies in god definitions by religious sects which show a god to be a fantastical being (ie fantasy)
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