Question about the south

[uvwpvW]

Originally posted by Slash27
ah, the old Nazi flag/Confederate flag are the same thing whine.

Nope, but both arguments are equally flawed.

[uvwpvW]

The Confederate flag and the Nazi flag are not the same. Nor are the crimes they represent. However if you can justify flying the Confederate flag by using this argument:

“Don't you realize that the vast majority of people who fought for the south in the civil war never owned a slave.”

Then you can also justify flying the Nazi flag by using this argument:

“And the vast majority of the people who fought for Germany in WWII never killed a Jew.”

IMHO both arguments are flawed in their logic. No matter how many good men fought for a wrong cause, that fact doesn’t justify flying a flag that symbolizes that wrong cause.

[Brenjen]

The Dutch, Portuguese, Spaniards and English all abolished slavery long before America did

 So? The ammount of time that passed between it happening & when it was outlawed obviously doen't matter. People are still complaining about it like there are some states who still have pro slavery laws on the books today. By the way, America bought her slaves from Dutch traders who in turn bought them from Africans why aren't the sob sisters complaining about them?

The Confederate flag and the Nazi flag are not the same. Nor are the crimes they represent

 The Confederate flag represents no crime. The only crime committed was by the federal government.

 The Confederate States had every right to succeed, international review has stated when the federal govt. of the United States succeeded from the British union they set precedent that the Confederate States simply followed when they succeeded from the federal union & the federal governments own attorneys agreed with their findings.

 Also if someone wants to fly the Nazi German flag...more power to 'em. It's only illegal in Germany, not in the U.S. Besides, the swastika was around long before the Nazis adopted it.  As a nation the U.S.A. was buddies with two of the worst mass murderers in history - Stalin & Mao. Each of those two guys killed more of their own people than the Nazis were responsible for in total. The conservative estimates of Stalins murders were in the 60 million range & Mao's were in the 100 million range....sort of pales the Nazis 6 million Jews in comparrison, yet no one says it's wrong to fly the chinese flag or the U.S.S.R.'s flag do they.

 Comparing the Confedrate flag or the Confedrate Union to Nazism is ubsurd.

[john9001]

japan still flys the old meat ball flag.

[Reschke]

Originally posted by uvwpvW
And the vast majority of the people who fought for Germany in WWII never killed a Jew. Yet still you don’t see swastika flags being sold as trinkets in Germany. Strange huh?

And see you just had to go off the deep end there. Not one statement was made about the genocide heaped upon anyone who was Jewish of any nationality was made and you made a 80 year and 3000 mile leap in history just to come up with that. BUT no in fact if you go to Germany and have that item with you they will likely take you in for questioning if you are a foreigner and possibly toss you in the jail for a nice stay....not sure but guessing there.

As for the Confederate Flag it is a completely different item than what you mention. I take issue with it because both sides of my family lost loved ones fighting for the right to do as they wanted in the civil war. In my family it was truly a brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor war. Not a single one of those who fought and died or fought and lived were ever in a position of ownership but were in fact just as much slaves as an slave was. In fact many of them worked right along side of them in the fields until they were sent off to war. I know it wasn't right to leave the USA and the reasons were vast and different BUT had I been alive then I can assure you that I would have been right there along side my other family members fighting for what I believed in. Was the war was not fought for all the right reasons? Nope but the common man who had no ownership of any slaves were not fighting for anything other than their homelands. Which makes me say this in closing; down here the confederate flag is flown below the US flag to show respect and admiration and to always remember those of our families who died for what they thought was the right thing to do regardless of what side they were on during the civil war.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Brenjen

 The Confederate States had every right to succeed, international review has stated when the federal govt. of the United States succeeded from the British union they set precedent that the Confederate States simply followed when they succeeded from the federal union & the federal governments own attorneys agreed with their findings.

Secede... not Succeed.

One they tried to do and one they didn't do at all.

[nirvana]

While this is all very interesting gentleman, this thread no longer serves a purpose then to "discuss" why "the battle flag of Northern Virgina" is so wrong.  Some people have "soutern pride" and show it by flying the flag of their ancestors.  Neo-nazis fly the swastika because they are proud of what their fellow brothern did.  I don't think many people actually have pride in the extermination of innocent people compared to pride of the south.

[Stang]

Originally posted by Reschke
In fact many of the soldiers who fought in the civil war were share croppers and before the war they worked in the fields beside other men and women who just happened to have a different skin color but for all intensive purposes those people (slaves) were in a better situation than the share croppers. At least those slaves were not threatened daily with having their homes taken from them because they could not keep up with the farming.

Ok, I can't believe no one jumped all over this one yet.  Just thought I'd point it out in case it was missed.  

Carry on.

[Brenjen]

"Secede... not Succeed."

 Yes, the singular "secede" & the plural "succession" throw me a bit when I'm typing fast & I don't catch it.

"Which makes me say this in closing; down here the confederate flag is flown below the US flag to show respect and admiration and to always remember those of our families who died for what they thought was the right thing to do regardless of what side they were on during the civil war."

 And well the United States of Americas flag should be flown above the Confederate flag, if the Confederate flag is chosen to be flown at all, the Confederacy was beaten & this is the United States.

 My family fought in the war, they were share croppers then & were after; my father lived in a military surplus tent for two years under a bridge back in the 40's when they were unable to keep up their share of the cotton farm because my grandfather had gotten sick. The slaves of the 17 & 1800's didn't have it as bad as white share croppers in some ways, medical attention & food & housing are the three things I know they had that my family did not, but my family had freedom & it has been said before & I'll say it again, you can't put a price on freedom. Slavery was wrong, it was corrected & some of us moved on, others of the U.S. poulation still feel we owe something to someone, we don't. For some reason people ignore all the facts about history, they just swallow whatever crap sounds politically correct so no one gets mad at them, BAH, get mad at me - I don't mind at all, I can read & I have a verbal history that has been told to me by family & I pass it on. I know the truth. That flag represents our history - ALL of us, because it is part of the history of this nation.



Nirvana said;
"While this is all very interesting gentleman, this thread no longer serves a purpose then to "discuss" why "the battle flag of Northern Virgina" is so wrong. Some people have "soutern pride" and show it by flying the flag of their ancestors. Neo-nazis fly the swastika because they are proud of what their fellow brothern did. I don't think many people actually have pride in the extermination of innocent people compared to pride of the south.
 
 
 Sorry for my part in the "Hijacking at the point of a fact"  I didn't intend for it. Also, the battle flag of Virginia was a small "standard" or flag, it was the size of the small square in the national flags, the full size one was the "NAVAL JACK".  I'll stop replying now because you can't muddy the issue with facts, people won't stand for it.

[E25280]

Originally posted by uvwpvW

The Dutch, Portuguese, Spaniards and English all abolished slavery long before America did. In fact slave trading became a dangerous business as the Royal Navy was actively hunting slave ships off the coast of Africa. America, being the last (arguably) civilized nation to allow slavery naturally gets most of the “black eye”.

Check your facts.  Slavery still exists in many parts of the world today.  Just from memory, slavery didn't end in Cuba until 1886 and Brazil until 1888 (or are you saying Carribean and Latin American countries are not "civilized"?).  Britain itself didn't actually outlaw slavery until I believe the 1830s, hardly "long before" the US in historical terms.

No, the reason the US gets a "black eye" is because some groups in the USA have made an industry out of being constantly offended and pot stirring in order to receive what amounts to shake-down payments and special perks.  They thrive by inciting one group of people and attempting to make another group of people feel guilty for actions that are not theirs.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Brenjen
"Secede... not Succeed."

 Yes, the singular "secede" & the plural "succession" throw me a bit when I'm typing fast & I don't catch it.

 

Secession:cool:

[Brenjen]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Secession:cool:

 Sorry nirvana one last reply;

 Either spelling can & has been used, allthough I concede that secede & it's derivatives are technically correct. I don't keep a dictionary or an extra window open on my computer, I spell from memory & I have been out of school a very long time.


  to all

[nirvana]

Sorry to bring this up again, what flavour of Blue Bell would "y'all" recommend I try?  I'm still a virgin to Blue Bell so don't go mad wild on me;)

[dmf]

Originally posted by NattyIced
South of the Border also has a crapload of fireworks. Good times shall ensue if you buy them.

Oh yes they do

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Brenjen
The "war of northern aggression" wasn't really about slavery; it was about states rights. Slavery was turned into a central issue by Lincoln to encourage enlistment into the Union Army (the federals were getting their tulips kicked early on).  

an excerpt from " Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union" adopted by the SC legislature December 24, 1860, long before Lincoln issued the emacipation proclaimation

A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave. , half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery  until it shall cease throughout the United States.

Please note the three emboldened instances in this excerpt of the word slave...  they are three of 19 instances in the entire document.

South Carolina broke away on account of slavery and the Union fought to counter that break.  

The civil war was entirely about slavery.