Author Topic: How can anyone in their right mind.. (Read 1407 times)

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #45 on:** May 18, 2006, 07:25:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Curval
You need some historical context there Bronk.

I made one point to Holden about the US (who was pointing the finger at Britain for abuse of indigenous peoples) by mentioning the US treatment of Native Indians.

To recap:

My statement "Every country has it's skeleton closet" allowed for the skeletons in Americas closet as well. That was intentional.

If you go back to my original post, I noted that Germany's anthem was not out of line with others, and noted Rule Britannia as a prominent example.

You then retorted, noting the behavior of the nation of 30's Germany made Germany's song somewhat different.

I then pointed out that Britain did some unsavory things during it's empire building, so your argument was without merit.

Then you spoke of the USA's treatment of Native Americans. (The genetic heritage passed from my grandmother thanks you for your concern)

The last statement did not defend Rule Britannia or attack Deutchland Uber Alles, and made no progress in the debate.

Curval · « **Reply #46 on:** May 18, 2006, 08:50:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
To recap:

My statement "Every country has it's skeleton closet" allowed for the skeletons in Americas closet as well. That was intentional.

If you go back to my original post, I noted that Germany's anthem was not out of line with others, and noted Rule Britannia as a prominent example.

You then retorted, noting the behavior of the nation of 30's Germany made Germany's song somewhat different.

I then pointed out that Britain did some unsavory things during it's empire building, so your argument was without merit.

Then you spoke of the USA's treatment of Native Americans. (The genetic heritage passed from my grandmother thanks you for your concern)

The last statement did not defend Rule Britannia or attack Deutchland Uber Alles, and made no progress in the debate.

Thanks for the re-cap. I note that all was going well until you stated suddenly that my argument was without merit and that is where the debate got de-railed. lol

Let's get back on topic.

Your comparison is totally without merit. Here's why: The German National Anthem speaks of German superiority over all others.

The British National Anthem goes like this:

God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

An additional verse is occasionally sung:

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign.
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause,
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen.

Do you see the difference? I see the difference.

Airscrew · « **Reply #47 on:** May 18, 2006, 09:00:56 PM »

, so if this is the British National anthem

Quote

God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

then what was this you posted earlier

Quote

Originally posted by Curval
When Britain first at Heav'n's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain;
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
The nations not so blest as thee,
Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all. .....

Curval · « **Reply #48 on:** May 18, 2006, 09:06:59 PM »

It is a somewhat nationalistic song called "Rule, Britannia!". It was originally a poem by James Thomson and it was put to music by Thomas Augustine Arne. It is often mistaken for the real national anthem. It's also good to sing at football games.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #49 on:** May 19, 2006, 12:19:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Curval
Thanks for the re-cap. I note that all was going well until you stated suddenly that my argument was without merit and that is where the debate got de-railed. lol

It wasn't sudden at all. You maintanied that Deutchland Uber Alles was bad due to the unsavory behavior of those who chose to sing it, and I pointed out that many who sing other patriotic songs are unsavory as well. Therfore your comparitive argument was without merit.

I see now you have abandoned your previous tack and changed to yet a third: Now it is whether the song is an official national anthem.

This was apparently unimportant enough to mention in the first two tacks you made, the first that Rule Britannia was better because it was about defense (lyrics in DUA mention defense as well), and the second that behavior was the key.

lazs2 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 19, 2006, 08:26:53 AM »

come on curval.... germany was bad but only for a few years and they are so guilt ridden about it that they can't even sing about love of country and defense of same..

On the other hand... england was the most cruel and tyrannical imperialistic country the modern world has ever known... the inventers of genocide and concentration camps and the biggest slavers of modern times and yet.... they feel no guilt about remembering those times in song and literature and glorying in them.

I think that is the hypocracy that holden is talking about.

lazs

straffo · « **Reply #51 on:** May 19, 2006, 09:27:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I think that is the hypocracy that holden is talking about.

demo - cracy : demos (the people) and kratein (power)
hypo - cracy : hypo (what's below, low or insufficient) and kratein (power)
=> ????

Saintaw · « **Reply #52 on:** May 19, 2006, 09:43:44 AM »

Straffo, I think it's hypocrisy reserved for medical purpose.

Curval · « **Reply #53 on:** May 19, 2006, 09:53:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
come on curval.... germany was bad but only for a few years and they are so guilt ridden about it that they can't even sing about love of country and defense of same..

On the other hand... england was the most cruel and tyrannical imperialistic country the modern world has ever known... the inventers of genocide and concentration camps and the biggest slavers of modern times and yet.... they feel no guilt about remembering those times in song and literature and glorying in them.

I think that is the hypocracy that holden is talking about.

lazs

I agree with the concentration camps. It was from your previous rantings and sympathy for the poor Boers during the war there. I know you feel a very close connection to these people. But, what were a bunch of Dutch people in South Africa for? Could it be that they came to settle and steal the gold?

But, inventors of genocide? Perhaps this relates to the concentration camp establishment?

If so, while the British may have "invented" it...the Germans perfected it. Bad...but only for a few years...LOL!

lazs2 · « **Reply #54 on:** May 19, 2006, 02:55:03 PM »

I like the boer system of politics. It was based on individualism. No matter what you say the brits were cruel and tyrannical imperialists for centuries and they are allowed and even proud to sing about the horrors they committed on the world... even get a little tear to the eye recalling the glorious slaughter and enslavement that was "britania rule the waves".

In the U.S. we had our little brush with their tender rule and policies.... we kicked em out and told em to go pound sand. Best thing we ever did. Worst thing was to not help the boer.

lazs

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #55 on:** May 19, 2006, 02:59:56 PM »

I really was just pointing out similar themes to patriotic songs...

Rule Brittania was just the first British song to come to mind, and British came to mind only because I was responding to Beet1e.

Most countries / governments / peoples have things in their history that they regret.

indy007 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 19, 2006, 03:26:02 PM »

Actually the Brits did not invent concentration camps. Spain used them in the Ten Years War.

So far Argentina, Austria-Hungary, Bosnia, Britian, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Croatia, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, China, Poland, the Soviet Union, Serbia, Slovakia, Netherlands, North Korea, and the United States have all used them, and in some cases continue to do so.

As far as nationalistic tunes... eh, whatever. Even high schools have fight songs. Never heard a single one from anywhere that glorified the camps... closest I can think of is Borat's "Throw the Jew Down the Well"... and that's HBO comedy.

Hap · « **Reply #57 on:** May 19, 2006, 03:39:34 PM »

Here's what the President has to say about that!

http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?ID=430

~~hap~~

Nifty · « **Reply #58 on:** May 19, 2006, 03:50:03 PM »

I think Curval's point was that one is an official national anthem, while the other is not.

But what do I know? I'm a confused American who likes football, I mean soccer, I mean foo... ahh, the hell with it.

Hangtime · « **Reply #59 on:** May 19, 2006, 03:52:14 PM »

He's easy to laugh at.

just don't do it on the phone.

When i was dating my soon to be wife, she cautioned me: "Be careful what you say to me on the phone. they're watching us". She in fact had a whack-job leftist roommate that actually always answered the phone with a brisk: "**** Hoover. Go ahead..."

..just to let people know they were probably being listened to, and as a statement of policy regarding her stand on Hoovers FBI.

Now, all these years later, the stuff the feds gathered on people illegally is available via the 'freedom of information' act. Whats really annoying is that anybody can get that info now. It's a matter of 'public record'. And it's one of the many reasons why i'm against the feds prying into the lives of private citizens.. who knows who's gonna be able to access the data.. it's just not safe in governemnt hands.