same mentality as 60 years, again now in il2?

[niklas]

About Georg Adam.

Unfortunatly, the first line in the page (http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/Adam_Georg/adam_georg.htm ) are not translated so i try to do it

"G.A was flying under the command of NFSK and should change after the war to the LH. For this reason almost no exact sources and informations exist, because the pilots of NFSK were administered and leaded by another commando.
The pilots of NFSK were not part of a special jaba/jg squad, thatīs why they īre not listed in the internal listings of the squads.

Furthermore, the pilots of NFSK enjoyed a better training and changed more often squads"

His nephew and me, we were both flying on german wb2.01 server so i know him a bit - though not from RL. I mailed him of course to get some infos from his uncle about the planes he flew.
He answered f.e. that nothing could outroll his 190 (Dora afaik).

The point is: It is very much possible that at the very end of the war wooden components were used for the 190. Today i was at "Flugwerk" and talked to the people there, and they confirmed that wooden components were used at the end.
But should you model a A-8 of the end of the war, when planes maybe were sometimes made in poor manufacturing quality, build in desperate effort to bring something that flies to the front line, or a imo more representative ī44 A-8?
I had a look in the A-8 manual at Flugwerk, the standard deflection were +-17° of the aillerons btw.
It was a really interesting day at Flugwerk, i think i ll post a bit informations later

niklas

[R4M]

So, Mr Maddox says that he is in contact with Georg Adam. I take this as a hint that Mr.Adam  assesses him. And so, he must be one of those pilots who say that the 109 outrolled the 190.

But Niklas says that his answer to the same question was that nothing could outroll his 190...Is me or something is really screwed here?   .

I have lots of books about WWII. Granted, none russian. But ALL of them, no exception, qualifies the Fw190 as the best rolling plane of World War 2, or at least they mention its extraordinary rollrate.

I never heard a mention about the 109's rollrate being good. I know that the 109Es  outrolled early mark Spitfires, but those also had their own share of problems while rolling.

Almost unanimously the reports we have about WWII jagdflieger, describe the 190 as a notably better roller than the 109. And seems that those first hand reports talk about excessive stick forces at high speed. The only doubt I had, is now solved.
 
Sorry, but I stand where I started.

Oh, and Oleg...I dont pretend that AH FM is perfect. It is far from being perfect(as I have stated lots of times in this board   )

But at least it seems way more plausible to me than the 109 outrolling 190s. I really hope that the final Il2 release have the FM I pray to see. I dont want to see such a nice project and great work damaged by a strange Flight Model.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[R4M]

BTW nice info on Georg Adam, Niklas. Always since the date of the thread I linked before, I wondered if he was really an ace. I really didnt know what to think at the time  

Seems that the guy who sent me the photos was right and not trolling us. I'm glad to know it   .

BTW niklas, please send me an email, need to ask you a couple of things and I have lost your adress  

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[Westy MOL]

Wel, far be it for me to toss another log on the Il2 flight model fire..


 but supposedly per Oleg the IL2 "FM drag module above 170-180 km/h not being present in the demo"

<cough>

 So much for the "BESTest and most accurate FM ever!" reports from those who've tried this unofficial demo.

 Westy

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Hristo]

Originally posted by Westy MOL:
Wel, far be it for me to toss another log on the Il2 flight model fire..


 but supposedly per Oleg the IL2 "FM drag module above 170-180 km/h not being present in the demo"

<cough>

 So much for the "BESTest and most accurate FM ever!" reports from those who've tried this unofficial demo.

 Westy

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

Remember AH beta ? Flap deployment ? B-17 guns ? Hit sprites ? Crash bugs ?

Cough, cough

Remember pre 1.03 flight model ?

Keep coughing

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]

[Staga]

Splash one !  

[Westy MOL]

<cough> hristojob <cough>

 You're so predictable. I did not know who'd reply first you or a guy who's handle begins with an "S" that usually beats you to the punch.

 You avoided the whole point while at the same time proving it <G> by showing how cultboys such as yourself rave like demented sim maniacs but when the truth comes out and all the holes in your imaginary nirvana appear you lunge for the messengers throat.

 Typical.

    Westy

[Staga]

Westy AH has come long way since beta but it is still having planes which FM HTC is going to check.
Il-2 beta we are playing is leaked, already old beta01 while "Real" Betaplayers are using Beta04.

If you don't understand that... well I can't help you.

[Westy MOL]

"If you don't understand that... well I can't help you."

 First, I comment on any program on it's own merit or lack of. Not "IT" verusus AH, although I may add that I wish something had AH view system, clouds, or many other nice features. I've never said WW2O sukks verusus AH, or AH rAwKs over IL2. I comment on what I feel are good or weak points for any sim/game program. By itself.

 Second, I know IL2 is a beta. I'm simply rubbing some folks nose in thier own doo-doo (DeeZcamp and Hristo now cause he had to put his nose in the way) for going off the deep end. Sort of trying to help clarify and show (so easily) what it is that Zigrat started to talk about here.
 
 Westy

[AKSWulfe]

Staga, he meant to say that with this leaked beta (pre-demo) there was a lot of "it's better this way..." from the fan base that downloaded and tried it out. Unknowing it was an early(?) beta, they proclaimed that this demo was superior to what we currently have. In whatever department they felt necessary to shout the loudest about.

Now that we have beaten each other's heads in about this and that, it is uncovered that this pre-demo is indeed an early beta.

To which everyone (myself included) who was skeptical at first began to question various parts of this pre-demo as to why it was better. Things were proven incomplete or needed revision.

There were many people shouting while sitting around a camp fire holding hands in their whitey tighteys about how this pre-demo was superior. When things were disproven about it's superiority, or questioned, they (those shouting and screaming) fell back on the "it's just a beta" line.

I hope that makes it clearer.
Westy & Zigrat were not saying this pre-demo is below, above or equal with AH- in fact they aren't comparing it at all. They were merely stating that how can it be so superior right now if what everyone is playing is simply an early beta release.
-SW

[Zigrat]

uhm i dont dislike il2 it looks like it will be a very cool game

it has many things i would like to see in aces high like diffrerent types of ammo, better cockpits, and customizable skins

but there are obviously things that could use improving from what ive heard. it doesnt do massive multiplay and ive heard there are FM issues taht are suspect.  im currently computerless so i cannot play any games, damnit. its been 2 weeks but i think its like what i hear quitting smoking is like. at first it wasnt so bad, then i wanted to play real bad, now its not so bad again  


hey im glad oleg is making it. it certainly looks to do some things better than aces high and hopefully hitech will make aces high better to compete  

plus at 14.95 price of aces high is much much better now and i dont mind paying nearly as much  

[Hristo]

Il-2 is already a beter sim than AH. I can only imagine how good it will be in final release.

As for Il-2 demo missing parts of FM, crap. It is a demo from beta and it is free. And it beats AH even like this. AH is missing realistic buff guns, realistic ack, realistic gunnery, realistic cockpits.

You want to look for playability concessions ? Fly AH.

AH went to pay-to-play for quite some time and was still missing FM. Hell, all planes didn't fly like they should in pre 1.03.

Yes, I am an Il-2 cheerleader. I'd be a hypocrite otherwise.

[Oleg Maddox]

Before to make any summary and conclusions, please make sure that you know what you said...

Sounds: NO ONE PLANE IN THE WORLD WAS ABLE TO OUTROLL FW-190.... ARE YOU SURE?  LET SAY that YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SUCH PARAMETER OF LAGG, LA-5FN, LA-7, or say any of Yaks?

I promissed to do not post, but someone still think that he is right.... and last work should only his word. Here is nothing personal it is nature of human  

I said that I will post some time later data... isn't it? Not all data I have but data for which I HAVE PERMISSION to post.  Do you know that when you work with REAL archives, no matter where In Germany, USA, UK or in Russia the person who work there and copied docs MUST sign AGREEMENT ABOUT NO DISTRIBUTION ANY OF THE COPIED DOCS WITHOUT PERMISSION (for books, or for something other.....) AND IT COST MONEY, SOMETIME GREAT MONEY (some time ROYALTY if in commercial producs use original pages, etc...)

Do you think about it? Take a look for that problem from other side!  
Do you know how much money I paid for some of docs? (most I got for almost free but with no permission to print in any print and internet sources)
And you offer me to post it for free not at time when I want it or when I will have official permission?

Georg Adam. That to speak about this veteran YOU SHOULD KNOW HIS HISTORY WELL BEFOR TO SAY SOMETHING.
Ace or not ace - for me is no matter. He was on Russian front and Western front. That is matter. AND HE HAS CLEAR MEMORY. I'm happy that I was able to get a help (any) from him and other German, American and Russian veterans. And I happy that I get VERY DIFFERENT OPINIONS OF EACH of them.

Georg Adam never said me that 109 can outroll 190. As I understood he loves very much FW-190D-9. At the same time his granson Steffen helped me to make interview with other veteran... And there I got very intersting data for 109, including rollrate - which fully corresponds to aerodynamics calculation in aerodynamic tunnel for 109.

The theme closed UNTIL IL-2 will be released and you'll be able to fly there FW-190 and compare with others. I never say that we HAVE 100% corresponding charts to original. But I will say that we have very close to what those planes perform.

I will not name anymore on the boards ANY names who helped me to get true data and consulted me untill release.

Some people don't understand some terms or, on the contary, understand it and that to confirm "ONLY ONE TRUTH they know" - speculate on that. That isn't correct way of discussion.

Show me diagramms of roll rate of 109F,G,K!
Can't?  
Show me diagramms of forces on the control column of 109 during dive from 350 to 850 km/h and recover after that dive!
Can't?

I will be very glad to see such charts of UK/US tests (for sure I have also some German such docs) for these planes which we need to model.

I know some veterans who flew other German planes.... Experimental and serial....
They all like to help that to get some of them flyable in a sim such as our IL-2...

So, if you or anybody flame me in terms of Rollrate of FW-190s compare to other MODELED planes, make sure to have REAL arguments.  

Here above I have read translation of document which I have as original book... (Soviet fighter tacitcs) By bold selected things which shows "confirmation" of summary....  
But you don't see other description, which totally in contradiction about climb data comparing to the west data, but fully corresponds to MANUFACTURE DATA.

Recommendations to do not follow the dive of 109 doesn't means that ONLY 109 will have large curve to recover from that dive WITH SUPERIOR SPEED...At such big speed whe you try to recover you may loose the mind, because of HIGHEST CONTINUES G-LOAD(what about modeling of that?). There you should read also that in Soviet LaGG-3 (that description is for such fighter type like LaGG - the most mass produced fighter in the end of 1942, when this doc was existed) unable to reach the same speed in dive and better to wait and keep the maximum speed if POSSIBLE in level flight that to reach German fighter in the cross of your and enemy trajectory (really it was hellpless for many soviet early war planes, such as I-16, I-153 or for lend lease Hurricanes and P-40).
I would like to say, if possible... That is doc how to fight with ENEMY fighter tactis and how they escape attack ... That means that pilots of 109 USED OFTEN SUCH TACTIC - dive on large speed and they USED the advantage in that case over the enemy.

At the same time FW-190 was new in 1942 for Soviets and this doc have not all the recomendatios. The only one captured by Soviets FW190A-4 was tested at that time and recomendations how to fight with that plane based on that test and on soviet pilots descriptions from the front. Real recomendations were done in late 1943. There is description that only way to escape attack from six, pilot of 190 uses half roll and dive, because impossiblity of quick level acceleration and lack of climb comparing to Soviet planes of that time... In that terms, haf roll and following 190's dive, La-5FN for example was superior (recomendations for pilot of La-5FN in case if German pilot of 190 uses that common for them tactic on Russian front).

There is also recomendations for IL-2 pilots how to escape attacks from six .... there is description markered top secret and not for IL-2 pilots eyes that FW-190 attack of IL-2 was in 50%-60% fatal if FW-190 begins to shot from long distance and kill rear gunner...  Not so many plots of IL-2 recalls that they successfully escaped FW-190 attack from rear... Most of them died after that attack... But a lot of survived after attacks of Bf-109...

So all terms are subjective... depends of situation and methodics of calculations/computations....

Each try to see what he want to see in one or other doc... Developer can't follow his own favorite plane. He need to learn all things....


My device is "The truth is somewhere in between"

I said many times, if I'm wrong and you have data to correct where I'm wrong - I will do corrections.

So...

My email is mado@1c.ru

[Tuomio]

And this man is former leading aviation engineer of institute, which created planes like su-27 etc.

No way they could know anything about aerodynamics!

Wind tunnel testing, sheesh, you didnt have Rommel involved, i dont believe your data! Only way we can simulate 190 flight charasteristics is to rebuild real one, clone Rommel and hes leather pants, put them in to air and study it!

 

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally posted by Tuomio:
And this man is former leading aviation engineer of institute, which created planes like su-27 etc.

No way they could know anything about aerodynamics!

Wind tunnel testing, sheesh, you didnt have Rommel involved, i dont believe your data! Only way we can simulate 190 flight charasteristics is to rebuild real one, clone Rommel and hes leather pants, put them in to air and study it!

 

You can by it alreay now in Germany... With Soviet licensed to China ASh-82FN 1875 hp engine...  
(sory some one will show you link, I have not at the moment)

I would by, just will need to accumulate more money...