same mentality as 60 years, again now in il2?

[AKDejaVu]

Russian programmer found some Russian data that is different from the rest of the world. Of course he is going to use it. Because "my country's scientists are the best" blah blah blah just like we Yanks would do.

Now.. all he needs is to come up with a reason to not show anyone else this data.

AKDejaVu

[Dmitry]

I completly dont understand this all hipe over this FM thing...
My country is that, and his country is that... My sience is good - yours sucks.... my data is right and yours are off....
I am not gonna talk about TsAGI, Messershmit or NACA test's. This all disscussion as I believe has grew out of FM data issue... and at some points are getting really ugly for no reason at all...
So here is quote by Tom Cofield:

 

As for the 'honesty' of Oleg's work-well, we are talking about a game gentlemen. He has access to old Soviet test data and has used it. Whether is it correct or has been modified for Soviet propaganda I guess can be debated but the gentleman has done his research and has made a simulation based upon that research

[leonid]

deleted.  not going to argue with people who couldn't care less anyway  

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: leonid ]

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally posted by Steven:
What do/did the Germans say?  They have the most experience.

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

Germans EXACTLY confirm all I said. Be sure I spoke to some of them and my friends (including real pilots) from Germany did special phone calls that to ask many things I was need to confirm...

Please wait:

1. Relase
2. I wil have special board column on www.il2sturmovik.com   and we can discuss all things. I will be able to answer for all your questions.
3. If IL-2 FM differs to all other sims FM that not means that it is incorrect. You like other - it is your decision. Why not?
4. In IL-2 manual will be quotes of WWII veterans... WHO PLAY SIMS FOR SOME YEARS AND KNOW WHAT THEY SAY IN THAT QUOTES ABOUT IL-2.
5. Beta tested with large amount of real pilots - about 40. The result of work - final release FM.


I'm sorry, I have poor English that to spend at the moment my time to explane for someone where they wrong or right.

In demo you got - there is many things are not tuned.  Say in FM there is due to size simply removed several modules... I know all issues of Fm there, but that not means that it is abslutely incorrect. I have tons of emails of REAL PILOTS who GLAD that SUCH SIM WAS BORN - their opinion based on THAT DEMO
Demo based on Beta01 versions dated April.
Current beta stage is 04 - candidate to release.

Because by case and by mistake of Ubi Soft guys released THAT demo, the REAL OFFICIAL DEMO BASED ON GOLD WILL BE PRODUCED ONLY AFTER IL-2 GOES GOLD - SOMEWHERE in OCTOBER.

Galland, who did a lot of kills in FW-190 did not doubt which one was superior - it was Bf-109... (If you trust only western sources - open Falcon 4 manual where such quote is present, just look for the that:

Pete Bonani (F16 pilot that worked on the Falcon series for Microprose) in the Falcon 4.0 manual.

quote from page A-2 of the Falcon 4.0 manual:
 
Quote:
"While flying F-15's out of Germany, Hands (Phil "Hands" Handley) had the opportunity to talk to Adolf Galland, the great World War II German ace. Hands told the German ace that it was obvious to him that of Germany's World War II fighters, the Fw-190 was the superior aircraft based on published performance data. The Fw-190 was faster, could turn better and could climb higher than the Me-109, the plane in which Galland had recorded most of his kills. Adolf Galland smiled and said that Handley was correct in his analysis of the two planes relative performances--but wrong in his assessment of which aircraft was superior. The German ace had flown both aircraft and believed that the Me-109 was the superior fighter because "flying it felt like wearing a glove". It was smooth as silk and easy to control, whereas the Fw-190 was difficult and unruly. Galland could fly the Me-109 to his--and its--maximum performance, and this made it the better combat aircraft."   End quote.
 
When Il-2 released - more quotes.  

I'm out.

[GRUNHERZ]

You know what I find really funny?

The cultists of AH are bashing the cultists of IL2 who are bashing the cultists of AH who are in turn bashing the cultists of IL2..........  


I like both games and hate things about both too, so I guess im not acultist, phew.  

Anyway oleg if you are posting here can you plese remove the dirt and filth from the canopy glass in your game.

Also look into reducing the size of the 20mm cannon explosions as they completly hide the enemy airplanes and make bad the aim.  I have seen many LW guncamera footage where the MG151/20 and the MK108 30mm are used.  No film showing MG151/20 use shows such huge black explosions, I belive this is wrong and should be reduced in size in your game.

If any of this has changed in new beta versions then thats ok.

thanks!

[Oleg Maddox]

The glass will be more clear.   I promise...

German Veteran Georg Adam, who flew Bf-109E, G-2, G-6, FW-190A-3, D-9, Me-262, said, when he begun to test IL-2: "It seems that my mechanic didn't wash the glass...."
I promised him and his grandson Steffen to wash the glass very clean, but next time with the release.  

[Hristo]

To nitpick:

Georg Adam also flew Fw 190A-6.

How is the Fw 190 in your game, Oleg ? When can we try it ?  

[GRUNHERZ]

Great! thx Oleg!


What do you think of the very lage 20mm explosions that hide the whole plane?

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally posted by Hristo:
To nitpick:

Georg Adam also flew Fw 190A-6.

How is the Fw 190 in your game, Oleg ? When can we try it ?  

Sorry forgot about A-6 (and didn't describe others he flew also)

FW-190A-4 (flyable with the relese)  FW-190A-5, A-8, D-9 (with the release non flayble) - all are very dangerous opponents and perform charts very close to real.

Fans who like this plane found it very usable. I also like this one very much. But anyway in Dogfight I will prefer later Yaks Las and Bf-109s

[csThor]

Oh Oleg Iīd be very careful judging a statement by Galland in the way you seem to do. Do not forget that he was pulled out of frontline duty in late 1941 when JG26 just underwent re-equipment with the first 190s. So he was used to the Me 109 and I am sure that he didnīt fly that much combat sorties in a 190. So missing the feeling of a plane he knows doesnīt mean the other is worse.


Unfortunately we cannot ask men like Walter Nowotny, Otto Kittel, Albin Wolf or August Lambert (btw the worlds highest scoring fighter bomber pilot  ) what they think about the characteristics of the 190. These men (alonmg with some others) scored most of their kills in different versions of the 190 and Iīm sure they would tell another story.

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Great! thx Oleg!


What do you think of the very lage 20mm explosions that hide the whole plane?

I think that we have it almost correct. B&W film just do not register all the things which happen in real life.

[GRUNHERZ]

Thx again for the fast response oleg.

Im not sure yet that the Il2 representaion is accurate though. What bothers me is the HUGE dark black cloud.  Something very large and very dark  like this certainly would show up on black/white film.


Anyway I will now go watch some of the LW guncamere films I have at home jut to make sure.

thanks oleg!

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally posted by csThor:
Oh Oleg Iīd be very careful judging a statement by Galland in the way you seem to do. Do not forget that he was pulled out of frontline duty in late 1941 when JG26 just underwent re-equipment with the first 190s. So he was used to the Me 109 and I am sure that he didnīt fly that much combat sorties in a 190. So missing the feeling of a plane he knows doesnīt mean the other is worse.


Unfortunately we cannot ask men like Walter Nowotny, Otto Kittel, Albin Wolf or August Lambert (btw the worlds highest scoring fighter bomber pilot   ) what they think about the characteristics of the 190. These men (alonmg with some others) scored most of their kills in different versions of the 190 and Iīm sure they would tell another story.

I'm careful   So I have many other samples, which I will post some time later   Not all at once.

But I never said that FW-190s was bad! In design of all things inside that plane I personally like it beter all WWII planes. But that not means that this plane will perform better all in our sim   It will perfor like it must (same for all others)

I can even confirm, that many designer's technical solutions of FW-190s went into IL-10(cockpit and electical equipment) and La-5FN (engine injection system).  

Better these fighter planes where inside is better pilot.

[csThor]

Hehe but sometimes your replies sound like you ment the opposite   ... Thanks for taking time Oleg! Most of "our" developers could learn much from you!

PS: Check your mail. Iīve just mailed someting for you.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: csThor ]

[R4M]

Originally posted by Yeager:
Did Galland or any of the other great german aviators ever address the difference in roll between 190 and 109 series to any useful extent?.

Take a look into SWOTL's manual.General Kuprinski's talking about the 109. And what did he said about the 109's rollrate compared wit the 190's.

I have the spanish version so I can't quote it literally. But he said that teh 109 while a decent roller, was NOTHING NEAR like the 190.


Mr. Maddox, once again with the deepest of the respects.

Do you really think that a 109, with the ailerons it had, where it had them, with the wing it had, with the round tips, with the anhedral angle of the wing, and with the lighter structure wing, will be able to EVEN APROACH the Fw190?.

I'm by no means an aeronautic engineer, but the Fw190's wing seems like designed to make the plane a rolling twister while the 109 emphasized stability on the lateral control (why that anhedral angled wing?)

 BTW, about that "Georg Adam", is not the first time I hear about him.
 http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=004559

But so far I NEVER have found ANY kill at his name.IN all the kill lists I have looked, tHere was a Georg-Peter Eder with 78 kills, but NO Georg Adam at all. He is not listed in any Knight's Cross recipents list, either, and he was supposed to have one.

Care to give more data about this Adam guy?.Backuped with GOOD data, please BEcause I still have to believe he really was a pilot in WWII, let alone an ace.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]