Author Topic: same mentality as 60 years, again now in il2? (Read 2884 times)

Staga · « **Reply #45 on:** August 28, 2001, 03:40:00 PM »

Would be nice to see those charts from that Russian institute. Right now its nothing else than just a rumour that 109 rolls faster than 190.

Show me the money.

luthier · « **Reply #46 on:** August 28, 2001, 03:44:00 PM »

Staga,

I will hopefully compile ALL charts that were used for one fighter's flight model in IL-2 - most likely it will be the FW-190A4. Not only TsAGI charts were used of course. In addition, FW factory specs, LW Reichlin test reports and some reports from other Axis countries that used FW's were all used and compiled together. So, no single source is the basis of IL-2's FM, but rather an average compiled from a variety of the sources form countries which had most exposure to the FW-190.

I'm hoping to sprinkle the article with specific interviews from living Luftwaffe veterans, and make it available sometime around IL-2's release.

Animal · « **Reply #47 on:** August 28, 2001, 03:50:00 PM »

Yes Possi, 109 can outroll a 190.
Riiiiiiiiight...

(btw, those german pilots you mention, almost all agreed that the 190 was the best german fighter, and the best rollrate)

Possi · « **Reply #48 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:02:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Animal:
Yes Possi, 109 can outroll a 190.
Riiiiiiiiight...

(btw, those german pilots you mention, almost all agreed that the 190 was the best german fighter, and the best rollrate)

That differentiated is you got the Info from books/Tests and we got this from German WW2Pilots!

The German Pilots dont mean with this only the Rollrate you can make more Rollmaneuvers, i cant tell you that so good ,becouse my Englisch is toejam,sorry...

AND I DON`T SAY THE BF109 CAN OUTROLL THE FW190.THE 190 DONT ROLL BETTER THAN A 109 AND THIS CORRECT!
A BF109G HAVE ROLLRATE FROM 3 SEC.IN 300km/h!

The Fw190 is heavier than a Bf109!

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Possi ]

Hristo · « **Reply #49 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:06:00 PM »

Why would I trust to NACA instead of TsAGI or other way around ?

Please, enlighten me

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #50 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:10:00 PM »

Don't argue with Possi, he's confused.

I don't understand how one or two live pilots anecdotes are anymore correct/accurate than the ones that died fighting.

Many German LuftWaffe indicated the 190 rolled much quicker than the 109, why is it different now?
-SW

Possi · « **Reply #51 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:18:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SWulfe:
Don't argue with Possi, he's confused.

I don't understand how one or two live pilots anecdotes are anymore correct/accurate than the ones that died fighting.

Many German LuftWaffe indicated the 190 rolled much quicker than the 109, why is it different now?
-SW

Thx for Confused!Not in my Books and i have a lot!

Hristo · « **Reply #52 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:25:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SWulfe:

Many German LuftWaffe indicated the 190 rolled much quicker than the 109, why is it different now?
-SW

name one, please

Ripsnort · « **Reply #53 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »

Funked, where are ya, how come your so quiet on this "rolling debate", or are you still spilling soda outta your mouth on the monitor?

NOt that it won't prevent me from buying the game, every sim I've ever owned has had flaws, but it just cracks me up to see folks try to change not only raw history, but actual physics, statistics, and thousands of documents from many different nationalities on the 190 vs 109 roll rate....

Westy MOL · « **Reply #54 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:30:00 PM »

"Why would I trust to NACA ..."

Certainly not me!!!

I do not believe anything from the US governmetn during WWII. Everyone knows how that murdering megalomaniac Roosevelt and his war criminal henchmen H. Hoover and H. Arnold would have had the NACA engineers kidnapped during a midnight raid, sent off to the Arizona desert where once there they would have been shot, tortured, shot again, made to work hard labor, shot dead once more and then hung from the end of a hemp rope as an example to all the other people in other US government and agencies and the armed forces. Therefore they forged and falsified the documents, at the threat of death and dismemberment, to make the LW planes 'go bad,' and the US planes 'go good.'

Westy

[transmission from Bay of Fundy Archipelago ended]

Hristo · « **Reply #55 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »

You still haven't answered my question. Or are you implying that USSR engineers made enemy planes look better than real. For what purpose would they do that ?

You say that there was no Western propaganda in WW2 ? Grow up.

Too much arrogance on this board, that's for sure.

I couldn't care less if 109 outrolled 190 or not, I fly them both - with slight preferance to 190.

A sim of Il-2 calibre wouldn't mess up its FM just like that. A lower quality sim like AH, hmmmm.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]

Possi · « **Reply #56 on:** August 28, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Westy MOL:
"Why would I trust to NACA ..."

Certainly not me!!!

I do not believe anything from the US governmetn during WWII. Everyone knows how that murdering megalomaniac Roosevelt and his war criminal henchmen H. Hoover and H. Arnold would have had the NACA engineers kidnapped during a midnight raid, sent off to the Arizona desert where once there they would have been shot, tortured, shot again, made to work hard labor, shot dead once more and then hung from the end of a hemp rope as an example to all the other people in other US government and agencies and the armed forces. Therefore they forged and falsified the documents, at the threat of death and dismemberment, to make the LW planes 'go bad,' and the US planes 'go good.'

Westy

[transmission from Bay of Fundy Archipelago ended]

Yeager · « **Reply #57 on:** August 28, 2001, 09:59:00 PM »

Did Galland or any of the other great german aviators ever address the difference in roll between 190 and 109 series to any useful extent?

I would be obliged to give actual combat pilots more say than any lab technician or game developer.

Western data appears to have long supported the assertion that the 190 series had exceptional and superior roll. I have never heard it said that the 109 series outclassed the 190s in this regard but it is as possible as anything I suppose.

However, this recent stink about a possible reversal of the long held allied standard from a modern day russian game developer will need more than old soviet data to replace the western perception with any result. It will need to be back up from a multitude of national sources and actual german aviators having flown both types extensively.

Having said all that. IL-2 is a game designed by Russians. It will have good solid data intertwined with some common ideas and beliefs held in Russian history and records.

All in all, the idea that soviets of the era held the 109 in higher regard than the 190, as far as roll is concerned, really is intriguing.

funkedup · « **Reply #58 on:** August 28, 2001, 11:25:00 PM »

Rip I'm stil SWOMing.

Russian programmer found some Russian data that is different from the rest of the world. Of course he is going to use it. Because "my country's scientists are the best" blah blah blah just like we Yanks would do.

And with most sims these days there are a bunch of sheep/cheerleaders who will believe anything the cult-leader/programmer tells them.

And that's what we have here.

Enjoy!

-aper- · « **Reply #59 on:** August 28, 2001, 11:59:00 PM »

Some things to think about

When Alexander Pokryshkin was asked why did he prefer P-39 over La-7 he simply answered that P-39 had much more comfortable cockpit and he could go inside the cockpit like inside the car.

When american test pilots were asked about 109 and 190 they always answered:

109 was a poor plane with small cockpit
and 190 was a good plane with much better cockpit

Looks like tendency