For our children?

[lazs2]

So todd...  you are saying that the older ways of teaching are really the "problem" with teachers?

That new methods and...I presume... More money will make it all better?

That the kids who were taught by the older methods of say... the 50's knew less when they graduated than the recipients of new methods today do?

lazs

[Shuckins]

Levi, your mother-in-law is absolutely, one hundred percent, dead-on correct in her assessment.

There is a lot of truth in the old adage, "Education begins at home."  Yet, that statement is incomplete.  It should read "Education begins at home...and continues at school."

Talented, caring teachers have to fight the pop-culture educational trends that took hold during the late '60s.  The supporters of these fads are heavily entrenched in the system and are almost impossible to dislodge.  When my own small rural district tried to implement a return to the phonetics approach to teaching reading and spelling the elementary teachers responsible for its implementation dug in their heels and fought it, tooth and claw.

Even after the change began to bear fruit, some refused to admit that they had been wrong.

It is this obstinancy toward change, toward a return to what worked in the past, that so frustrates those that support that change out of concern for the children affected by it.

Paents wrapped up in their self-centered interests...who fight any attempts to rein in their spoiled brats and establish the discipline necessary to facilitate the education of ALL the children in a classroom...only complicate an already difficult situation.


As I said before, thirty years was enough...I am WELL OUT OF that mess.

Regards, Shuckins

[lukster]

I know why schools fail and our lack of holding people accountable is largely to blame. If parents aren't involved in raising their kids then there can be no hope for a free and prosperous society. Relinquishing parental authority to the state is a huge step toward socialism or fascism.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by lukster
Relinquishing parental authority to the state is a huge step toward socialism or fascism.

Agreed.  But I assert that the parental authority applies to your own child, not everybody elses.  

The book banning (call it by any other name, that's what it is in the end) is an attempt for Parent A to make decisions about Parent B's children.  Those of you who feel comfortable making those decisions might want to ask yourself: How would you like it if other parents were making the decision for YOURS?  Parent X doesn't believe in the Holocaust, so they lobby the school to not talk about that 'hoax'.  Parent Y thinks that Huckleberry Finn is racist and demands that it be pulled from the shelves (or at least filed on a special 'restricted area').  Parent W says "Violence is bad, dodgeball should be forbidden because it teaches kids to hunt one another".  Parent Z feels that the US is 'imperialistic' and sues to have the US history properly spun to indicate this.

...and so on.  I'm pretty sure all of this has actually happened, and it's no different from the book issue this thread started with.

I parent my own children, not everyone elses.  They have no right to tell me how to raise mine, and I'll keep my nose out of how they raise theirs.

[lukster]

Can we stick to the facts? These parents are not asking for books to be banned from the school library. They are asking that their values be respected by allowing them some say over what their kids have access to in school. What is wrong with an area for books that require parental approval? This is not a rhetorical question?

It would seem that some of you are so afraid that my values will influence your kids that you're willing to relinquish your parental authority to the state to prevent it. Big mistake imo.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by lukster
Can we stick to the facts? These parents are not asking for books to be banned from the school library. They are asking that their values be respected by allowing them some say over what their kids have access to in school. What is wrong with an area for books that require parental approval? This is not a rhetorical question?

Please re-read my post.  Most of the examples I used(Huck Finn, Dodgeball, Holocaust) have actually happened, some of them multiple times.  The only one I don't know about is the american history one.

Do you think those other parental restrictions should apply to all the kids at YOUR school?  No Twain?  No Holocaust?  No 'violent' sports?  If so, then I think you're doing your child a terrible disservice, but it's your choice.  If not, then what gives you the right to be the parent that says "BAN IT!" when none of the other parent's opinions count?  And it _IS_ a ban.  If it's technically "available" with written parental consent, then is basically doesn't exist.  When I went to middle school, there was a shelf that the librarians controlled that had that restriction on it (Oooh, "Catcher in the Rye"!  Dangerous!) and NOBODY read anything from it because of the hassle and the work needed to get to it.

It's all or nothing.  The schools can't play favorites.  Teaching your kids starts at home, using the schools to push agendas is wrong, and a well raised kid should be immune to it when it happens.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Please re-read my post.  Most of the examples I used(Huck Finn, Dodgeball, Holocaust) have actually happened, some of them multiple times.  The only one I don't know about is the american history one.

Do you think those other parental restrictions should apply to all the kids at YOUR school?  No Twain?  No Holocaust?  No 'violent' sports?  If so, then I think you're doing your child a terrible disservice, but it's your choice.  If not, then what gives you the right to be the parent that says "BAN IT!" when none of the other parent's opinions count?  And it _IS_ a ban.  If it's technically "available" with written parental consent, then is basically doesn't exist.  When I went to middle school, there was a shelf that the librarians controlled that had that restriction on it (Oooh, "Catcher in the Rye"!  Dangerous!) and NOBODY read anything from it because of the hassle and the work needed to get to it.

It's all or nothing.  The schools can't play favorites.  Teaching your kids starts at home, using the schools to push agendas is wrong, and a well raised kid should be immune to it when it happens.

Teaching your kids starts at home and continues at both school and home. All teachers have values and morals. If they spend any time with your kids they cannot help but influence them based on those. This may be good or bad but it's foolish to believe otherwise.

Are you saying that we should trust school administrators to determine what's best for our kids? Is that what you mean by "all or nothing". You unarguably relinquish at least some of your parenting rights when you send you kid to someone else to be taught but that does not mean you should not stand up and insist that your values be respected in that teaching.

[wrag]

by Dead Man Flying

"So before guys like Wrag or Lukster become righteously indignant about lack of prayer in schools or some silly library book,"

That is an assumtion Sir.   Wondering how you got to that?

Thinkin, from what I've seen posted so far, allot of people are making similar assumtions.

I am NOT for forcing anyone to PRAY!  I am for allowing those who so wish, a time for silent prayer.  Why?  Because we are supposed to be a free people.  Our government should neither promote nor prevent.

I am NOT for forcing any religion on ANYONE.

I posted this thread because IMHO I saw the schools removing parental control from the parents by FORCING certain books into the public domain of the library.

I could have said "so what" like so many have said.  Hey mine are pretty much all grown up and out on their own.  My Grandchildren are pretty much their parents concern as to how they will be brought up.  No I do not always agree with what I see my Children doing with my Grandchildren.

As to our school system.  WHAT A MESS!  It needs overhaul BADLY!  Much of what IMHO is the cause of our education mess started in the 60s and 70s along with all the other new style teaching garbage previously refered to in this thread.

I am in agreement with laz!  Schools should stick to reading, writting, rithmatic, n geography.  Leave the morality to the parents.  IMHO the books mentioned would not even be present but for the Politically Correct New Style Teaching Group that wants everyone to be accepted and their behaviour made acceptable.  We must not hurt anyones feelings. Comments have been made about sheltering the young from the real world here.  So what do you call forcing everyone to find everyone, as well as their behaviour, acceptable?  Forcing everyone to NOT hurt the feelings of others?   What about the we must not compete or someones feelings will be hurt when they lose?

Excuse me!  (NO NOT REALLY)  In the real world your feelings get hurt.  In the real world you and your behaviour are NOT always found acceptable to everyone.  In the real world we sometimes lose!  (BULLYS keep shooting me down in the MA, BULLYS I tells ya!)  Hey if there is a winner is there not 1 or more losers?  That is life.  My referal to BULLYS in the MA on 200 is a POKE at the NEW style!  Perhaps it's too subtle for some.  I make such comments silly and unbelievable ON PURPOSE!  Because to me the NEW style I see is just that!

I blame NwBie for all kinda stuff when there is NO WAY he could be responsible.  Pretty sure everyone is aware of that.  If not then there ya are!  NwBie really isn't responsible for any of it.  He is my Squadie and fortunatly for me he puts up with me!  Great guy IMHO.  But then so is the rest of my squad.

When I posted this thread I expected most of the responses I saw.  IMHO many of the responseders came into this thread determined to have their say WITHOUT really reading the thread posted.

SCREAMS of BAN, censorship, etc all over the place.  When IMHO all the post said was parents wanted a SAY regarding certain books that were being made availble to their children without their permission.   IMHO that permission/right is/was being ignored by the NEW Style Teaching Group that seems bound and determined the world will be as THEY envision it no matter what you or I think!

Got this thing about what IMHO is arrogant people that have proven over and over that they are failing.  Many I think will agree.  They ARE failing our children and us.   Further they, the New Style Teaching Group, SEEM now to be under a TOO great of an amount of control by special interest groups that APPEAR to have a private agenda.  That agenda SEEMS to be being pushed without regard for any consequnces or potential harm to others.

I'm not against enlightenment for anyone.  IMHO Enlightenment is a GOOD thing.  A necassary thing!  But HEY, give the FULL story PLEASE!  Don't try to shove some suger coated, media doctored lie at me or mine!  And before you do that DON'T EVEN try to control me or mine!  We get REAL onery when people do that!  You wanna live your life a certain way NO PROBLEM.  I have no interest in controlling you or yours (well... unless you happen to be a family of serial killers... then I might want to take some sort of action).  Now give us our space to live our lives our certain way.

NOTHING IS FREE!  NOTHING!  TANSTAAFL

[wrag]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Agreed.  But I assert that the parental authority applies to your own child, not everybody elses.  

The book banning (call it by any other name, that's what it is in the end) is an attempt for Parent A to make decisions about Parent B's children.  Those of you who feel comfortable making those decisions might want to ask yourself: How would you like it if other parents were making the decision for YOURS?  Parent X doesn't believe in the Holocaust, so they lobby the school to not talk about that 'hoax'.  Parent Y thinks that Huckleberry Finn is racist and demands that it be pulled from the shelves (or at least filed on a special 'restricted area').  Parent W says "Violence is bad, dodgeball should be forbidden because it teaches kids to hunt one another".  Parent Z feels that the US is 'imperialistic' and sues to have the US history properly spun to indicate this.

...and so on.  I'm pretty sure all of this has actually happened, and it's no different from the book issue this thread started with.

I parent my own children, not everyone elses.  They have no right to tell me how to raise mine, and I'll keep my nose out of how they raise theirs.

My problem with what you put forth is this.  

Who are you to decide WHEN my children are ready for something?   Your method IMHO can be LIKE leaving a LOADED firearm about for a 5 year old.  The knowledge we have available at our fingertips is incredible.  Giving it to our young before they are ready, before they reach a certain level of maturity, can create some serious problems for them and us.

If my child wishs to know a thing, and I think they are ready, or I think it is time they know a thing I will take the steps needed to insure they get the information they need.

By your method this will NOT happen.  By your method any effort I put forth in trying to raise my children responsibly goes right out the window.

No one IMHO is telling YOU how to raise your children.  They are telling you that you will have to do just abit of extra effort to teach them certain things if you think your children are ready early.  BUT IMHO you are telling everyone else HOW to raise their children.

[Chairboy]

Wrag, what's the firearm?  

Do the parents who think the holocaust is a hoax have the right to prevent all kids at school from learning about it?

Do the do-gooder new age parents who think Huckleberry Finn is a terrible racist book have the right to pull the book from the library shelves?

Do the parents who don't want "violent sports" have the right to have them all pulled from the school?

[lukster]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Wrag, what's the firearm?  

Do the parents who think the holocaust is a hoax have the right to prevent all kids at school from learning about it?

Do the do-gooder new age parents who think Huckleberry Finn is a terrible racist book have the right to pull the book from the library shelves?

Do the parents who don't want "violent sports" have the right to have them all pulled from the school?

The "firearm" in this case is explicit sexual language.

We have had sex education in the schools for decades now. While I don't see that this has done anything to curb teenage pregnancy or promiscuity, it's not quite the same as putting explict books in grade school libraries. Maybe you don't think that the all time high teen pregnancy rate is a problem?


The rate did decline, not sure where it is today. Too high imo.

[Chairboy]

Here's the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0763624330/sr=8-9/qid=1150478243/ref=sr_1_9/002-5797229-5609614?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Also, I sometimes feel that liberty is a fairweather concept for many.  "As long as I agree with it, it's ok" is NOT how our country works.  This book is innocuous.  It's a tough subject to talk about.  I can't imagine how difficult it must be for the children of people who get worked up in knots over something like this.  What _do_ they learn, and from whom?

[lukster]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Here's the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0763624330/sr=8-9/qid=1150478243/ref=sr_1_9/002-5797229-5609614?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Also, I sometimes feel that liberty is a fairweather concept for many.  "As long as I agree with it, it's ok" is NOT how our country works.  This book is innocuous.  It's a tough subject to talk about.  I can't imagine how difficult it must be for the children of people who get worked up in knots over something like this.  What _do_ they learn, and from whom?

Children do not enjoy the same liberties as adults. Would you let a 10 year old drive a car or join the Army? It is at best disingenuous to compare restricting children to denying adults their liberty.

[Horn]

Originally posted by lukster
The "firearm" in this case is explicit sexual language.

We have had sex education in the schools for decades now. While I don't see that this has done anything to curb teenage pregnancy or promiscuity, it's not quite the same as putting explict books in grade school libraries. Maybe you don't think that the all time high teen pregnancy rate is a problem?


The rate did decline, not sure where it is today. Too high imo.

Actually according to the CDC, the teen pregnancy rate is the lowest it has been since 1976 so you might want to update a bit. That statistic also pokes some holes in your argument that sex ed hasn't "done anything."

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/01news/trendpreg.htm

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Horn
Actually according to the CDC, the teen pregnancy rate is the lowest it has been since 1976 so you might want to update a bit. That statistic also pokes some holes in your argument that sex ed hasn't "done anything."

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/01news/trendpreg.htm

That report is nearly 10 years old. I'd like to see an updated version.