Stay away from Jiffy Lube

[Skuzzy]

Same thing, day in and day out.

Beet, you put a lot of faith in the owners manual.  Fine.  Mine says 5,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first, between oil changes, so does my Wife's owner manual.

In both, there is a caveate.  And I quote from my manual, "The recommended oil and filter change frequency is based on average driving conditions.  If you operate the vehicle in extreme conditions for long periods of time, it is recommended to shorten the distance and/or time between the oil and filter replacement schedule."

According to your own logic, I should be changing my oil every 3,000 miles or 4 months, because the owner's manual says to.  As I do drive in extreme conditions most of the year.

These threads with the same repetitive stuff going back and forth is rather boring.  Somebody want to explain the point of this?

[Chairboy]

The original poster of the thread is the stone dropped into the pond, we are all but the ripples.

[deSelys]

Wow Maverick, I'm sooooooooo impressed. You should write a book for toddlers about how combustion engines work (one made in soft plastic pages so it won't be damaged if they chew it).

Now, if you read my post again, you'll notice that i said that the DESIGN (need those caps to catch your attention), the MATERIALS, the ENGINEERING the POWER MANAGEMENT,... have nothing in common with those dinosaurs.

I'll help you with the first item of your list:

is the piston of a modern Audi designed like one of a Ford T?
are they made from the same alloys?
are they engineered with the same tools?
is there electronic in the Ford T preventing the driver to redline the engine?
...

And please remind me how many trucks in the 30's had a direct injection or a common rail injection diesel engine.


EDIT: I think that Chairboy has nailed it about the longevity of cars not having increased along the years like performances

[mora]

Originally posted by deSelys EDIT: I think that Chairboy has nailed it about the longevity of cars not having increased along the years like performances [/B]

I don't think it has increased either. The longevity of engines has IMO. A car will be usuallly scrapped long before the engine wears out.

[Maverick]

deSelys,

What you are saying is just because there have been changes it's all a totally different machine even though it operates in the same manner using the same components but of differnt materials. Same for the function of oil, since there is synthetic out now it bears no relation in function to non synthetic?

If that blows your dress up have at it.

[mora]

Originally posted by Maverick
Same for the function of oil, since there is synthetic out now it bears no relation in function to non synthetic?

If that blows your dress up have at it.

In other applications like transmissions synthetic oils can be used even 7 times longer than mineral oils, the most important reason is their resistancy of oxidization and oil sludge. Because of the enviroment in an internal combustion engine it can be used only 2 to 3 times longer. The are also other developments in oils that have increased the oil change interval further. The "longlife" oils are not made to API specifications(even though the match and exceed them), but they are made to the specifications of the engine manufacturer. When the oil is optimized specifically for the engine thay can be used longer.

[deSelys]

Maverick,

It's not a totally different machine since it still run on petrol and needs oil. But you have to agree that for 2 engines of roughly the same cubic inches and made at both ends of a 60 years interval, the modern engine will usually:

• use less fuel
• develop more bhp and torque
• be more reliable

so why can't you accept that it requires less frequent oil changes?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Same thing, day in and day out.

Beet, you put a lot of faith in the owners manual.  Fine.  Mine says 5,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first, between oil changes, so does my Wife's owner manual.

In both, there is a caveate.  And I quote from my manual, "The recommended oil and filter change frequency is based on average driving conditions.  If you operate the vehicle in extreme conditions for long periods of time, it is recommended to shorten the distance and/or time between the oil and filter replacement schedule."

According to your own logic, I should be changing my oil every 3,000 miles or 4 months, because the owner's manual says to.  As I do drive in extreme conditions most of the year.

These threads with the same repetitive stuff going back and forth is rather boring.  Somebody want to explain the point of this?

Yes, I do put a lot of faith in the owner's manual, and for one very good reason: It was written by the people who built the car, and I feel strongly that they know more about the car than anyone else, including you, me, Lazs, Jackal et al. I also feel that this is a much healthier option than trusting to titbits of "knowledge" from guys on this board, whose expertise is rooted in legacy engines using 50 year old technology.

Your vehicle manual advises you to adjust your service interval, if driving in extreme conditions. VAG take a different stance - you decide when you buy the car which schedule to be on. If doing a higher than average mileage, as I do, then you can opt for the long-life package - use Long Life oil and have the service interval decided by the onboard computer, which will take in data from the oil quality sensors and from other sources. If driving under harsh conditions, you can opt for Time/Distance servicing, which would be 10,000 miles or 6 months, for example.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by  
Maverick,

It's not a totally different machine since it still run on petrol and needs oil. But you have to agree that for 2 engines of roughly the same cubic inches and made at both ends of a 60 years interval, the modern engine will usually:

• use less fuel
• develop more bhp and torque
• be more reliable

so why can't you accept that it requires less frequent oil changes? [/B]

Go back and look, I never said the oil needed to be changed either more or less frequently than 3 months as a matter of practice.

Here is what I did say about oil. these are quotes from my earlier posts. Each of these comments deals with condition of oil, something the environment it is used in is a critical factor.

Depends on the area you drive in. The desert Southwest of the USA is about as dusty a place as you can find (Yakima Firing Center in Washington being as bad or worse) and the particulate counts in the air lead to earlier oil changes as the engine ingests the stuff. A non dusty environment adds less abrasives into the engine.

Don't forget the combustion by products, if you use a medium to high sulfur fuel you get sulfur oxides in the oil. Short term driving also adds water condensation. The combination makes sufuric acid in the crankcase. Bad stuff to leave sitting in the engine, that's why it's important to drive enough to get the oil hot to burn off the water in the crakcase.

The oil still does the same functions, clean, lube and cool. Change it in accordance with environment, usage you put it through and what the manufacturer says.

If you really want to know the condition of the oil and use it to the fullest extent of it's useful life, take a sample and have it analyzed. A good lab with a gas chromatograph spectrometer will tell you the condition of the oil and if it is safe to continue to use it based on additives, contaminates and how well it's being filtered. They may advise you to replace the oil and filter or just the filter. They can also tell you based on a series of analysis of your oil over a period of time the condition of your bearings, rings and some other components in the engine due to the things that find their way into the oil. I don't believe there is that kind of equipment in any motor vehicle.


Please note I did not say you must change it at 3 months or any other time period.

[Skuzzy]

Beet, you missed the point entirely.  There are people in this thread (and a couple of others) who are aruguing about 3,000 mile oil change intervals being too short and not neccessary.

You say you trust your manual more than any opinion on this board, yet you are one of the people who argues or implies the short oil change interval is not neccessary.

So, should I believe my owner's manual, and my Wife's Volvo manual, or should I listen to others on this board?  I know it is a moot question as you have stated, the opinions of others in this thread are not based on current knowledge of engines and the owner's manual is quite right.

I really do not care what your manual says.  It does not apply to either of the cars in my garage.

[lazs2]

Ok beet... first of all... I never said that diesels could not use synthetic oil you are not telling the truth.

Next... I am no expert on any engines but thanks for the lesson on how a points set works.... my cars are either multiple spark discharges or simple electronic ignition...  I have a points type on my motorcycle.

As for sensors analyzing oil.   Are you saying that the sensors will tell how much grit is in the oil or what percentage of the additives (detergent etc.) are depleted by doing an analyisis?   They may have some rudementary turbidity sensor but....  the equipment to do much more than that would be prohibitively expensive and would have to have the probes cleaned and calibrated often.

In the end..... If I were you beet.... I would not show this thread to anyone you had planned to sell your car to down the road as "proof" of how smart you are and how dumb the rest of us are.

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok beet... first of all... I never said that diesels could not use synthetic oil you are not telling the truth.

You said, on page 1 of this thread "beet... we have synthetic oil that is good for 15,000 mile oil changes and.... it is extremely easy to come by. And...it is for regular engines... not diesels."

As for sensors analyzing oil. Are you saying that the sensors will tell how much grit is in the oil or what percentage of the additives (detergent etc.) are depleted by doing an analyisis?

Read the freaking .PDF document! Then you'd know! It says "these engines have sensors which  continually monitor the quality of the oil", and goes on to add that the system can even detect if a non-LongLife oil has been added. If it can do that, I think there's a good chance that it can detect some of the other contaminants, to which you refer. It doesn't actually spell it out...

In the end..... If I were you beet.... I would not show this thread to anyone you had planned to sell your car to down the road as "proof" of how smart you are and how dumb the rest of us are.

No need. I'll do what I've done in the past, which is to show that the car has been maintained in accordance with VAG recommendations. That's always been good enough in the past. We don't usually get people looking for boogeymen in the glove compartment on this side of the pond.

[lazs2]

Ok beet.. I said that it is for regular engines and not just diesels...  the context was that I was saying that we could get synthetic for any engine.

And... I read the document.  I also use analytical instruments for work and have them calibrated and change the probes etc. on them.

The document doesn't "spell" it out..   that is correct.  "quality of the oil" is a very nebulous term.   That could simply mean that it gauges quality based on how many start and stop cycles for instance.

As for detecting when a non long life oil has been added... I don't know enough about what the chemical makeup differences are to know how complex a sensor it would take to determine this but....

Why brag about that sensor and not one that measured turbity or grit or depletion of additives if they really had such?

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
The document doesn't "spell" it out..   that is correct.  "quality of the oil" is a very nebulous term.   That could simply mean that it gauges quality based on how many start and stop cycles for instance.

Well, it does say that the system continually monitors the oil quality, which implies that it does more than simply count the number of start/stop cycles. It's only a 3 page document - an overview. But it does say that this continual monitoring of the oil quality means that the service interval can be as long as 30,000 miles. I don't get that with my car though.

Why brag about that sensor and not one that measured turbity or grit or depletion of additives if they really had such?

I think the document was designed to give ordinary consumers an insight into LongLife oil and the modern day extended intervals between oil changes. At 3 pages in length, I don't think it was intended as part of a degree course in automotive engineering.

[Jackal1]

Audi itself had a long term engine sludge buildup problem that would render the sensors inoperatable.
Since senosrs don`t actualy reproduce the the senses built into human noses, (the nose knows), fingers and eyes and has no way of knowing or sensing what load or circumstances the engine has been put through, I`ll stick to gauges and common sense.
I`ll admit that if you do not intend to keep a vehicle for any length of time and have absolutely no regards as to what condition someone who later purchases the vehicle gets or has to deal with when bought, then hey....owner manuals are your ticket.