The United States of Europe

[Dowding]

What do people think about such a development?

The British people are going to have to decide in the next ten years (maximum) whether or not we want to join the Euro and give up the pound. After this, closer political ties with the continent are pretty inevitable, so the question is do we feel European enough to join a European 'Federation'?

I personally believe there will have to be some large changes to the way the EU works if I am to agree with closer political and economic ties.

1) Restrict membership to the most wealthiest 'core' of European nations: France, Germany, Italy, UK, Holland et al.

2) Halt the extension of the EU in the East to nations which have weak economies and poor human rights records.

I feel that the extension of full membership to many countries is premature - help them to establish themselves, however, but how can Romania or Estonia be on an economic par with the UK or Germany?

I am essentially a Europhile, but I have grave misgivings over some of the decisions the EU has taken recently. Many EU institutions are frankly undemocratic. But I believe that if we want to change the way Europe works, we have to be in it; after all we are only a small island (despite having the 4th largest economy in the world).

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Eagler]

Just another step in the direction of a "New World Order".

Don't worry about it  

Eagler

[bike killa]

ok so where is the place for Poland in your opinion? in or out EU?

[RAM]

And Spain?   (not that I care a toejam, the damned € experiment is making AH more expensive each month that passes)

[Macchi]

Ram,
same without the Euro. But USA cant raise the gab for long time, too big discrepance in their household. Wait and be patient  
A federal United States of Europe YES
A centralistic United States of Europe NO!!!

Lem

[Dowding]

I'm not an economist, and won't pretend to be an expert for a single second. But it makes sense for countries with similar standards of living to form the core of the EU. As for the Euro - I'll tell you now that no-one in Britain will accept the Euro if it involves 'weaker' currencies. Poland (and the other former Eastern Bloc countries) would have to prove to the rest of Europe that its inclusion would benefit the union.

As for Spain - I said 'et al' - I couldn't be arsed to list all the countries that fit into the category I was describing.

Eagler, I would rather have the power concentrated in a democratically elected body than huge, democratically unaccountable multi-national companies.

BTW I saw a program about 'The Patriots' who live in some non-tax paying commune in the States. They constantly banged on about the 'New World Order' and how UN troops would someday come to their community and try to take it apart. They said they were prepared (i.e. armed to the teeth). They came across as decent people (non-rascist unlike some far-right anti-federal groups) but seemed very, very paranoid to me. Besides, as we have all been reminded on this BB, isn't the UN run by the US?



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Staga]

Dowding I guess you havent been in Estonia in a while ?
I've been there 20-30 times in last 6-8 years and every time I've seen new buildings, shops etc. You could say They're running after us and maybe some day they'll even pass  

btw:
Oldest bar I've ever been in was "Eesli tall" (Donkey's stable) in Tallinn; Built for a cattle in late 1700  
Tallinn is an old "Hansa town" and it's really beautifull place.

[Naso]

I hope in a future USE, every population will be in correct place,

Germans as soldiers,
Frenchs as dyplomatics,
English as politics,
Spanish as economics,
and...
Italians as lovers !!
 

[arhurb]

Spanish as economics???? you Kidding????  FIESTA ALL THE TIME!!!    

Pepino.

[This message has been edited by arhurb (edited 10-31-2000).]

[mietla]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
Poland (and the other former Eastern Bloc countries) would have to prove to the rest of Europe that its inclusion would benefit the union.

Benefit the union? What happend to your strong conviction that the "blessed" countries should help those not "blessed". Or is it that only the US has those obligations?

Obviously it does not bother you that you Brits screwed Poland in 1939 and then sold it into Soviet slavery in 1945.

mietla

[Fishu]

Brits probably will be smart and get rid of the EU...
At least I would do so, it sounds like a bad plan from the begining.
I'd like more of independent brits as well as of independent Finland than as some semi-independent state.

These USA wannabe byrocrats sucks  
They don't realise that Europe isn't built like USA.

[Yeager]

Dowding,

In my judgement, UK going with the EU would be disasterous.  Dont get mixed up with those fools!

Yeager  

[qts]

As a British Citizen, I have no wish to join the Soviet Socialist State of Europe.

[Dowding]

The way I see it Yeager, it's either closer ties with the US or with Europe - I guess it will be up to the Great British Electorate to decide... I'm not going to tell you what I think   .

BTW - the UK is already in the EU, we just still have our own independent currency, rather than the rather weak Euro.

 

Benefit the union? What happend to your strong conviction that the "blessed" countries should help those not "blessed". Or is it that only the US has those obligations?

Yes, and the EU already helps the Eastern Bloc countries with loans etc. We've helped to start the development of a modern infrastructure. I'm not saying Poland et al should NEVER be allowed to join the EU or Euro - the time has to be right. The question is do we devalue the Euro to support a weaker currency? I don't see who would really benefit from that.

I had alot respect for you Mietla until your next comment:

 

Obviously it does not bother you that you Brits screwed Poland in 1939 and then sold it into Soviet slavery in 1945.

My country, my relatives for god's sake, went to war against Germany when they invaded Poland. They could have appeased Hitler and sued for peace at any stage. But we did not. We gave a base of operations to Polish flyers to strike back at Hitler. I find your comment breath-takingly ignorant and insulting.

What were we supposed to do about the USSR and Poland? Declare war? Launch nuclear strikes to free the Eastern Bloc countries? My friend, that latter idea was actually considered.

Of course, all the world's problems are due to Britain - we are at fault for everything, we created Hitler, we appeased Hitler (let's just forget about the part of history that concerns us FIGHTING Hitler).

Hindsight is such a great f***ing tool.

BTW Mietla - how is the slavery of Poland 'my' fault. Quit with the 'you Brits' crap.

qts - "Soviet Socialist States of Europe"? Oh Pleeeze. You the speech writer for William Hague per chance?  




[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by Naso:
I hope in a future USE, every population will be in correct place,

Germans as soldiers,
Frenchs as dyplomatics,
English as politics,
Spanish as economics,
and...
Italians as lovers !!
 

EVERYONE GATHER UP THE SHEEP AND HIDE THEM FROM THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!!  

Mav