al sharpton...

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Yoj:
Herr Fish

and there's another sad example of your conditioning. the second someone doesn't agree with your pre-programmed views on race you - like every other good sheep - start in with the nazi references.

anyone with a view other than yours is a nazi huh yoj....

....right on cue

[ispar]

mrfish, try visiting an impoverished white neighborhood in any city. You will find exactly the same, or not much different a situation. Trash, crime, grafitti, drugs. But the stats show that this community will be harder to find. Whites in this country, in general, are far better off economically than blacks. This is not due, at least not for the most part, to any lack of effort or will on the part of black Americans. This has been the case since long before the Civil War, as well as after it, with free blacks. They were denied opportunity and equal education, and what do you have now? Many of them are trapped in these communities with nowhere to go. Trapped. That's what these poor neighborhoods function as. Don't give me garbage about them ending up there solely through their lack of effort - it's utter hogwash, formulated from a desire to hide from the truth. White America has had a large hand in this.

I never stated that immigrants coming to America were from the upper crust. What they have is confidence and knowledge that they can succeed. It's hard to see that success is feasible, however when you have not had any evidence of it for generations. Even if the tools exist, it's hard to imagine that using them is worth it. There IS a certain degree of responsibility we need to take for this.

Additionally, you helped prove my own point. You said that the Asians and especially Chinese set things up as their own (very successful) system, with no outside interference. Those last three words are key. No outside interference. Asia has a cultural history of this! Immigrants are following patterns. When they came here, they weren't American. Many still aren't. Blacks however, are unequivocally American. And as Yoj said... comparing Asians to Blacks in this context is laughable.

Try to imagine the shoe was on the other foot - things were reversed as far as skin color involved, but all the history is still there... now tell me. Would you do better? Would you be better off by now (this is whites as a whole I'm speaking to)? If you say yes, think about this... the ONLY reason you can use to rationalize that answer would be that YOU ARE WHITE. Look at your reasons for your stance on this, mrfish. Look deep. I'm not saying that anyone is intentionally, openly, or even awarely racist. But it certainly does underly a lot of what we do and say.

Don't try and blind me with individual success stories - they constitute a very tiny piece of the pie, and there are no more success stories out of white slums.

Face it - the underlying base for all these assumptions is racism. Not that you are racist, but that we are all to some degree ingrained with it. We carry these assumptions, which color our observations and opinions and experience. To say that blacks just have less of a will to succeed is a racist statement. There is no cultural explanation or factual (hell, even an observational) basis for this. I refer you back to the statement about Colin Powell.

Finally mrfish, none of my views are based on what I've gained from pop-culture or the pc "common standpoint for idiots" or whatever you want to call it. They are my own reasoning and understanding of at least part of why things are as they are. Don't slander me by effectively calling me a mindless drone, please.

S! Yoj! Good work standing your ground there. I know it's tough with no allies to back you up.

[zapkin]

dudes..put yourself in the position of a colored folk...you walk in a store they watch you...you walk down the street people fear you...you walk down your own street and people want to kill you...it aint easy being a colored folk. but...why should I or anyone else be forced to pay reparations for something that happened over a hundred years ago..and I hate to say this, but these colored folks that want reparations are better off than they would be if their ancestors had not been enslaved. They could be living in some messed up country in afrika right now starving...instead they live in a rich country. But then I am not a black fella, so I probably dont know what i am talking about

[mrfish]

ok, well i guess since their tragic history has set their future in stone and they can't overcome their adversity due to the unbreakable grip of evil white oppression, then they are to be pitied.

pitied as poor, helpless noble victims. helplessly struggling creatures whose lives would be changed if we just give them more money and the answer key to all life's tests.

<cue neil young song here "helpless....helpless....heeee eeelpless.>

perhaps someday if you get your way, the government will devise a law that will make everything all better! after all, i look to them for solutions. better life through legislation and sensitivity training!

i have only a few more mind-numbing decades on this entropic dustball to endure these excruciating ironies anyway, so i don't care much in the end. let the excuses flow.

and p.s. - quit apologizing and dancing, if you mean to call me a racist (and you do) just say it.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Yoj:


And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue.

- Yoj

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]

And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue....to be imagined by blacks to justify their imagined victimization.

Sorry, if you work hard, you get ahead. If you sit on your arse with your hand out, crying poor pitiful me, you don't...

What about ugly ppl? It's proven they make less than attractive ppl and aren't as likely to be promoted as a pretty boy/girl. Don't see anyone rushing to their legal assistance, sueing corporation to have quotas of ugly CEO's, managers and the like...

[ispar]

Originally posted by mrfish:
ok, well i guess since their tragic history has set their future in stone and they can't overcome their adversity due to the unbreakable grip of evil white oppression, then they are to be pitied.

pitied as poor, helpless noble victims. helplessly struggling creatures whose lives would be changed if we just give them more money and the answer key to all life's tests.

<cue neil young song here "helpless....helpless....heeee eeelpless.>

perhaps someday if you get your way, the government will devise a law that will make everything all better! after all, i look to them for solutions. better life through legislation and sensitivity training!

i have only a few more mind-numbing decades on this entropic dustball to endure these excruciating ironies anyway, so i don't care much in the end. let the excuses flow.

and p.s. - quit apologizing and dancing, if you mean to call me a racist (and you do) just say it.

mrfish, I never said any of the above. Stop twisting my words. I never said anything about giving them money, about giving them some magic answer key to life. If you work hard, yes, you can get ahead. But that is a difficult option to pursue when you are grouped into a setting like the one many black Americans have to live with.

I do not support reparations. I do support trying to figure something out... what I don't know.

And mrfish, I am not calling anyone racist. I am calling everyone racist. I'm using a lose definition, I suppose - I do not mean hate racism - but we all have preconcieved notions and ideas (for example, the illusion of high black crime rate. People who believe this don't hate blacks, usually) that color our experiences and outlook, without us even being aware that we are letting race affect us. Racism is any kind of idea or conception that affects the way we look at people of another race. That's how I read the book. And no, I am not denying my own inherent racism.

But you will never be satisfied, eh mrfish? Continue to assume that I am calling you an evil nazi... I can't stop you, after all.

[ispar]

Oh, a note: I am not talking about most blacks, i.e., the middle class. mrfish mentioned a poor neighborhood in San Francisco. I am responding to his statement, and saying that it situations like that one that perpetuate many (hell, most) of the problems with race relations in this country. You can refer back to posts above for that... I'm not writing all that again  .

[jihad]

You missed the point.  You can educate, train and cloth a Black person just as you can the cracker - but he doesn't become invisible in society.  And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue

No, you missed the point.

But go ahead and keep screaming poor poor pitiful me - it's all whiteys fault thay my contemporarys speak english worse than most emigrees and dress in clothing the Salvation Army wouldn't give to a bum.

You want to blend in with society then teach your kids to speak properly and dress them appropriately, maybe they won't be mistaken for a 'gangsta from the Hud'.

P.S:

Reparations are roadkill, whites already paid for slavery - in blood spilled in the civil war.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by jihad:

But go ahead and keep screaming poor poor pitiful me - it's all whiteys fault thay my contemporarys speak english worse than most emigrees and dress in clothing the Salvation Army wouldn't give to a bum.

You want to blend in with society then teach your kids to speak properly and dress them appropriately, maybe they won't be mistaken for a 'gangsta from the Hud'.

What truly amazes me is the influence this lifestyle has on this generation of youth - of all colors-, from music to dress to language (both verbal and body). I can only assume the attraction is in the repulsion of the entire thing by most adults... really is funny seeing a white or asian kid trying to look and sound black. The housing <sp> (pants down to the crack of their arse with the boxers hanging out, bottom of pants frayed as they drag the ground) thing really is humorous considering it was started by poor families whereas the younger siblings had to wear the older siblings outgrown clothing as they could not afford new. Won't even go into the music ... if you can call it that.  

I must be getting old ...  

Even if they (<-who) agreed to pay back the blacks for slavery, who would get it? who would pay? who would distribute it? Hogwash - the entire thing is nothing but race baiting politics by those who say they are for the little ppl while lining their pockets with their cash..

[highflyer]

TO be perfectly frank here people:


To those black people of what I know are from this generation: 1977 and on...

Please clean up your neighborhoods, stop giving the image (most youth) of being a gang banger, hip hop, player, underachiever, and look at me I am cool/tough guy attitude.

Learn to speak the english language as it has been taught! I actually find the idea of Ebonics idiotic. Give me a break, Those wanting to support this are those that are so UNWILLING to learn and fit into society.  

I live in a Black neighborhood, and what I see is a complete LACK of respect for others, as well as their own personal Property. The war and attitudes are sprung from WITHIN the black community then carried over to the whites.

I think that the YOUTH of Black communities need a WAKE UP call. I tend to see only the negitives of the envrionment that they live in.

I am not speaking of graffiti, or things like that, infact if some Graffiti is done as "pieces" its a nice work of art.
 What I am seeing for the most part is an Image that is created from the media, hip hop stars, and others that implment these fads, and Tough guy attitudes.

For all you guys who happen to be black and use the excuse that whites are handed over a silver spoon, and have x amount of already established respect just becuase of the color of my skin. I say BULL.  I have grown up in a poverty stricken home, father leaving at age 7, seeing my mother being raped, and beaten. You know what!? IT sucked, BUT I LEARNED FROM IT. I vowed at that early age to never be involved with drugs, alcohol, and all the IGNORANT acts that one can do in life. Living on welfare, my mom took that Time to study HARD! to work long endless days, and Provide for not only me, but my brother on her own. You want to talk about being poor and living at the bottom of the barrel, IVE been there. My mother, thank god had morals and ambition to succeed and not sit around happy with what she had, eventually made it. Normal life. House in the suburbs.. typical american dream crap.

What about...Drugs...

DRUGS seem to Be ever popular among all races, but There has not been a day where I havent smelled or seen someomne smoking up, Laying back in thier car, "laxing". Give me a break... how about we start off by wearing our seatbelts, sitting up in the car seat to where you can have the most Situational Awareness of all that is occuring around you instead of trying to just barely look over the dash board.  
 
You know there is so much garbage and topics that can be discussed about this entire race /racism issue that its almost utterly pointless. Im pretty pissed off by all the ignorance I see from many poeple, White, black,red, and freaking any color of the spectrum.  

Its a damn shame that I, having lived in many different communities, black, white, hispanic, low class, upperclass, have come to the ultimate finding that THere is NO BIAS against blacks and how they live thier lives, Just a truth that I see and the actions and society they create are built from WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY!  

TO all the White people:

Live your lives, do not give handouts, Learn and excell in your lives.

TO all the Black People:

Stop crying over the 400 years of oppression and bitterness of how crafty powerfull intellgent ignorant evil warbearing people took you from your home land so many years ago!  

I think the black communities can learn from the asians who had the same type of oppression issues.

Live your lives as examples to the communities, grow and learn, and do it in such a way that you are to excell in all that you do.


  Freaking MOVE ON and LEARN PEOPLE!  

[ispar]

My goodness highflyer. Really. And just forget it, all of you. Clearly you are not understanding what I'm saying... this has been proven three times now. Whether it's because I'm incoherent or you guys are just plain dense I don't know or care. Disagreement I can live with. When you totally twist what I try to say, well... that's just irritating.

[Yoj]

Originally posted by mrfish:

Originally posted by Yoj:
[QB]

Sorry - I fail to see the difference.  [qb]

hmmm - you don't see the difference between an unfounded bias and an opinion based on experience? most people find the contrast glaring and obvious.(one involves decisions based on fact, the other is the uncontested acceptance of an unsupported statement)

well... a bias is kind of like your kind of thoughts. you have the unfounded bias that all minorities are noble oppressed people and that the white majority is racist and oppressive. it isnt based on experience it is just what you think you need to say to look like the nice guy and get along with everyone and be in step with the herd.


[qb]My experience tells me how wrong you are, and when it comes to the experience of color in America, mine are more valid than yours.[qb]

well that kinda stands on it's own as far as nonsensical statements go -  no one's views on race are more or less valid than anyone else's. i have been the target of racism from supremicists who don't like the fact that i am in a mixed marriage and it almost cost me my life on a backwoods camping trip but that is not what qualifies me to speak about the black community. i went to an all black school as a kid due to bussing regulations where i was the minority, but that isn't what qualifies me either. simple observation and logic are enough.

what are the qualities of a successful race vs. those of an unsuccessful one? you don't need to be a minority to answer that - you just need enough fact and the ability to reach a conclusion regardless of how it makes people feel about you.

you see if i didnt base my opinion on experience then i would be like you: full of canned safe opinions that you digested from from the mainstream like a good tool.

have you ever had a negative opinion about any race other than white males? why not - because there was none to be had? OR because it wasn't fashionable and someone might not like you?

your opinions on race might make sense some day when you stop trying to please everyone and accept the truth for what it is, warts and all.

you can go to the gym every day and become strong or you can try to brainwash everyone and make it so the whole world is conditioned to say you are strong whether you are or not. you can make it so that if someone says you look flabby then they are attacked and ostracized by the rest of the community. when things go uncontested people eventually accept them as the truth whether they are or not. there is only one truth in this example and in life - you are strong or you aren't.

MrFish, are you misunderstanding me on purpose?  You certainly seem to be reacting to things I haven't said.  I won't list every detail, there are too many.  I will say this - I don't say my experiences are more valid because they are "in step" with some ideology.  I spoke only to the specific point of the experience of being a minority in America, and I say they are more valid because I am considered to be one and you aren't.  Therefore, I know just how extensive and pervasive the effect is.  

Nowhere did I say "the white majority is racist and oppressive", though its interesting that you thought I did.  There are many members of the majority who are racist and oppressive, as are members of every minority.  Attitudes like that don't follow "racial boundaries".

As for racist attitudes, I say you have them because you see things (just so we're clear, I did not say everything) in terms of races - like you're discussion of "successful races". Again to be clear, I do not accuse you of having negative biases - only commenting that you see racial divisions as something real.  

As for my opinions on race - your comments make it clear that you really have no clue as to what they are.   Personally, I maintain that "race" per se is a myth.  In reality there are only individuals who come in a kaleidoscope of forms.  It is society that groups people according to a characteristic and then behaves as though that grouping is meaningful.  So - no, I have no ill feelings about any race, white or otherwise, because I don't think such a thing exists.  There are people I don't care much for, and they likewise come in a variety of forms.

Finally "you are strong or you aren't" is a tautology - the question is, do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we as a society feel an urge to help those who aren't.  I assume you prefer a "survival of the fittest".  I don't.

- Yoj

[Yoj]

Originally posted by mrfish:


and there's another sad example of your conditioning. the second someone doesn't agree with your pre-programmed views on race you - like every other good sheep - start in with the nazi references.

anyone with a view other than yours is a nazi huh yoj....

....right on cue

And, I'm sorry, but this is an example of YOUR conditioning.  Why is it that using a German word makes you think Nazi?  Herr is simply "Mister", and I used it in exactly that sense.  I might as easily have called you M. Le Pesche, or Fish-san.  What would you have read into that?  I assure you that if I had meant Nazi I would have said Nazi.  What's with the name calling anyway?  There's no place for it in a civil discussion, but you seem to want to do it and to assume I will return it.  Sorry, its a pointless exercise and it obscures the discussion.

- Yoj

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]

[Yoj]

Originally posted by capt. apathy:
I find it odd that black people who find no problem excepting that black people may be more successful at a sport (ratio of blacks/whites in the sport disproportionate to population) and call it natural ability.
Turn right around and complain that the ratio of blacks to whites in coaching doesn’t fit.  
  I guess it's ok for minorities to have natural ability over whites in certain areas.
but completely unthinkable for there to be more whites who are better at something.

Again reflective of so many pervasive attitudes.  Minorities with "natural abilities over whites" is another of the racial myths that float around, like the idea of "natural rhythm".  If minorities succeed in major sports its due to motivation, not some "natural ability"  White athletes who dedicate themselves to sports excell just as well.  There are more minorities represented because poor minority members see fewer paths to big time financial success.  

As for coaching or managerial representation, well, either there is a lack of ability or a lack of opportunity.  We have our own opinions as to where the cause lies.

- Yoj

[Greese]

Sorry, don't want to get entrenched in a pointless debate, but I have to agree with Highflyer here.  Reason?  Because I have a black brother.  He was adopted when he was 5 years old (I was 7).  If you talk to him, you find out that the situation is exactly as Highflyer said.  It comes from within their own communities, not from anything white people are doing.  
     If you talk to my brother, he will say he has not been disadvantaged in any way due to his color.  He has had the same opportunities as me, his white older brother.  
     It's perhaps hard to swallow, but there it is.

-Greese