al sharpton...

[highflyer]

Yoj.. I pose this question on you..


What do you feel about the actions of todays black youth?

And I mean as an overall figure.


My point is this:  The majority of crime, and negitivity are brought forth from this portion of americas socitey.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying that the end all be all of crime is within the black community.

Trust me, white, asian, and hispanic as well as others are obvously a factor of the problems of society today.

It disturbs me that no matter how many times I look at the situation, I wind up finding that blacks for the most part have these issues and are a part in most crimes.

Now this is what I find and I may be off.

Those who speak of racial equaility, and trodding down of the system not being equal, are those those who are the same teaching thier children to continusoulsy remember the past, almost to the point that a bred inner hatred is created against whites.  I wonder where all the Parents are in all of this?

I say that a child is born, whether he be white/black/asian/martian who cares,... he is a child with natural human ideas and the willingless to be taught anything. I say that racisim and the negitive actions that are to be carried on later in life (if carried on) are taught or brought uip with these ideals.

If you raise your family like hoodlums, then the result is that you will have a hoodlum family (white or black)

If you raise your family with honesty, vaules, and respect for other poeple, their vaules, and ideas, you will have a much more stable socitey. (white or black)

I think the parents are the ultimate factor in how the person is developed in the early years.

Lets start to teach our children the GOOD things in life, and not dwell on what happend hundreds of years ago, or even 40 for that matter.  

Lead the way....

[ispar]

Originally posted by highflyer:
Yoj.. I pose this question on you..


What do you feel about the actions of todays black youth?

And I mean as an overall figure.


My point is this:  The majority of crime, and negitivity are brought forth from this portion of americas socitey.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying that the end all be all of crime is within the black community.

Trust me, white, asian, and hispanic as well as others are obvously a factor of the problems of society today.

It disturbs me that no matter how many times I look at the situation, I wind up finding that blacks for the most part have these issues and are a part in most crimes.

Now this is what I find and I may be off.

Those who speak of racial equaility, and trodding down of the system not being equal, are those those who are the same teaching thier children to continusoulsy remember the past, almost to the point that a bred inner hatred is created against whites.  I wonder where all the Parents are in all of this?

I say that a child is born, whether he be white/black/asian/martian who cares,... he is a child with natural human ideas and the willingless to be taught anything. I say that racisim and the negitive actions that are to be carried on later in life (if carried on) are taught or brought uip with these ideals.

If you raise your family like hoodlums, then the result is that you will have a hoodlum family (white or black)

If you raise your family with honesty, vaules, and respect for other poeple, their vaules, and ideas, you will have a much more stable socitey. (white or black)

I think the parents are the ultimate factor in how the person is developed in the early years.

Lets start to teach our children the GOOD things in life, and not dwell on what happend hundreds of years ago, or even 40 for that matter.  

Lead the way....

And how do you feel about this?

The majority of crime comes from the black society, maybe. I don't know whether this is true or not (it's a generalization, to be frank; you assume that because most of those arrested and convicted are black that balcks are the major source of crime? Oh, sorry, the source goes beyond blacks... more on that later. I mean to say, you assume that blacks account for most criminals?) so I'll just make it easy and assume for purposes of discussion that it is true.

Now, these children are born into one of these "affordable districts." All this "cheap housing" is not the answer in itself. It is just another discrimination trap. It takes blacks who are, shall we say, financially disadvantaged, and places them together in an environment that is the perfect breeding ground for crime, pollution, what have you. Why? The vast majority of crime can be traced to - that's right! - disadvantage. Ironically, in commiting crimes to try and move ahead the world, crime can only bring more disadvantage to the rest, and to the criminal. High crime draws funding away from public institution, peopla care less and less about what happens to this cheap district, despite posturing to the contrary, and everything spirals downhill.

This stigma of crime is attached to the black population and the neighborhood they come from. The right figures that this must mean that the people just don't care enough to move themselves ahead. WRONG! When you take these people and put them all into this community, the criminal actions of a few will very quickly degrade the community as a whole. They get stuck and are unable to get unstuck. They are unable to improve their situation because of this cycle. Crimes are committed. Education and public services run down. Work is harder to find. It's hard to aquire the skills for a decent job, period. And of course the whole time you have this label of low income, black person applied to you.

Forming these "projects" is an anti-solution. How ironic. It only magnifies the problems that we are all complaining about here. It is simply another part of the problem, and one of the root sources of the stigma associated with the "black community" (which doesn't really exist, so far as I can tell. No way are all black people even close to unified). And then all of you people assume that because we are doing so much to try and "help" blacks (completely and utterly false) that it must be totally their problem!

These low-income housing neighborhoods you speak of, mrfish, only seperate people into groups and make it easier to keep people at where they are - rock bottom. Just another form of control. And people think that it would really help them, if they would just work at it. This saddens me. WISE UP PEOPLE! WE ARE NOT MAKING THINGS BETTER!

Now, what's the answer? I don't know. But for a start, diversify! Spreading people around and mixing things up is the only way to start improving the situation. Putting low-income people into groups like that, especially if they're black (this is because of race issues that it causes more problems with black communities) only worsens the situation. And, by the way, there are many, many poor Italian and other communities throughout the country. You just never hear about them.

Just one more thing, an answer to your success stories - people coming from across the ocean usually come from  a far more group oriented culture where hard work admittedly is a stronger ethic than it is here. This is even more true with Asian community. Most of them come from cultures with a much stronger emphasis on respect of aurthority and other aspects that make it easier for them to resist the pull of making ends meet through illegitimate means. They come with expectations of success, if they apply themselves hard. Many and most poor blacks here no longer hold these hopes. They've been discriminated against and poor for generations. What amount of work could do any better for them? This is an underestimated part of the issue, and one that people often shrug off as simple apathy. Wrongly, by my conclusion.

So, I've come to the end of this long-winded argument. I hope at least a couple of you will see what I'm driving at. It's late though, so it's less than perfect. Enjoy... you all have your hearts in the right place, I think, but have, IMHO, the wrong idea of where the problem really lies. Either that or you're in denial. But I think better of you than that...
S!

[mrfish]

so ispar.....so i understand fully....other cultures in disadvantaged neighborhoods succeed because of their morals and work ethic which blacks don't have because their self esteem is crashed from years of white male discrimination.

they won't seek a legitimate way out and government handouts and headstarts don't work because it makes them feel seperate? do i understand you correctly?

so what do you feel their options are if they wont pull themselves out and the efforts of others are futile?

[ET]

General Colin Powell,Retired.Raised in Harlem in NYC and the south Bronx.Both terrible slum areas.Worked his way up the U.S Army chain of command through a lot of discrimination in the 50s 60s and 70s. Now Secretary of State of the U.S.A.He gets no credit from NAACP because he does not follow the party line.Many individual sucessful blacks are ignored because they do not follow the party line.One Supreme Court Judge comes to mind.The J.Js an A.S.s and Mfumes of the country keep their income coming in by causing problems and keeping the ball in the air.Their color is green.

[Krusher]

The bottom line is education. If you have a well educated society you will eliminate a very large chunk of the reason for affirmative action.

I went to school in Baltimore county and Baltimore city 25+ years ago. The difference between the two school systems were as obvious as black and white. In the county we had pretty much everything we needed for a good education. In the city we had little or nothing.

Equalize the education system and affirmative action will be a distant memory. I give George Bush credit for understanding this, but he will never get the education program he wants from this congress.

[Yoj]

Ispar put a finger on an important point - and its very much a part of what I'm on about.  There is this perception that young black males are responsible for the majority of crime.  Its simply not true, as a look at the crime stats will clearly show.  Its much the same as the perception people have that society is more dangerous now than in the past, when in fact serious crime has been going steadily down for at least the last thirty years.  What IS true is that black and latino men are JAILED more often than their proportion of the society would justify.  Why?  Because they are seen as a menace and therefore the police and courts focus on them.  And they are seen that way in part because the prejudices of society are reflected back and reinforced by the media (the same media that are so often painted as "liberal" but are in fact simply after a good story).  The fact remains that most black and hispanic young men are law abiding members of society.

And Krush (hiya bud!) also has a very good point.  Equalize education and the reason for affirmative action goes away, because then everyone is prepared with the same tool kit, and the ONLY thing that separates people is their talent and motivation.  

As things stand now, we offer most of our young people a decent set of carpenter's tools, but provide one segment with a rusty saw and a busted hammer and then wonder why they don't make nicer furniture - and we point to the occasional one who builds a wonderful cabinet and say "why can't you all make things like that?", never thinking its another way of saying "why aren't you all above average?"  

However - even education doesn't solve all the problems - there still needs to be some kind of watchdog.  As difficult as bias might be to prove, there still has to be a way to TRY to give every member of the society the chance to move ahead based on their talent and motivation.  You can do away with quotas and affirmative hiring programs, but if a qualified and hard working person is denied the chance to move ahead because of their race (or religion or gender or any other bogus reason) there needs to be some recourse.  We're still a long way from a colorblind Horatio Alger nation.  

- Yoj

[mrfish]

you guys get an A+ for regurgitating the latest pop culture opinions of race issues in a safe, politically correct and super non-offensive way. ( i especially love how everyone prefaces any truthful statement with "don't get me wrong i have lot's of black friends" - good training!)

-but in the interest of reality-

you still can't explain why the asian community in san francisco succeeded so well. bottom line.....

you can not deny that all of the same elements are there and that the outcome is dependant on the people themselves: discrimination (even enforced by state  legislation at one time),poverty, overcrowding, underfunded schools (or lack of altogether), the lure and option of crime as an escape, mean old white guys making funny cartoons about them and being big meanies and hurting their feelings. It's alllllllll there.

AND - as if that weren't enough - english as a second language. and no - the people who come here are most certainly NOT of the upper crust well educated sectors of other societies. anyone who says that knows diddly about the asian populations in san francisco. and in fact is it's a little iritating that someone would make that guess without having even a cursory knowledge of immigration realities. many are refugees from the communist system or people that can't get ahead because they dont have the necessary bribe money it takes to succeed in china.

 most are from the poor southern areas around canton and had to wait and work up to 10 years to get to hong kong and another 5-10 to get here. some are barely educated in their own language much less another. they depend on the success of one immigrant to assist in the rest coming over.the rich mandarin chinese typically stay in china or they come over and go right into the upper crust. many even go to places like switzerland or the uk where their companies have interests.

now, according to your media conditioned 'go-to guide for politically correct answers' based entirely on the latest fads of sociology, you are supposed to say something like:

"yes but the spirit of the black man has been broken by years of mean white guys"

or some equally heart-string tugging excuse.

when you are tempted to run for the safety of those excuses remember, if you say it is because the chinese have a superior work ethic you are simply, by inference, saying that the blacks don't.

if you are saying that blacks don't have this ethic because of white people not liking them, then you are infering that they can't or at least haven't been able to develop those skills of their own accord - and that their survival depends on how someone else feels about them. so again you are criticising them.

the reality is simple. they aren't competing and it's nobody's fault but their own.

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

[capt. apathy]

but if a qualified and hard working person is denied the chance to move ahead because of their race (or religion or gender or any other bogus reason) there needs to be some recourse.  

You are absolutely right on this one. However there is no recourse for a white male who has been discriminated against by affirmative action. And that’s the point I’ve been trying to make. If you are a minority and are discriminated against you have legal recourse, (some may say it's hard to prove I think it's hard to defend against) with or without affirmative action. If you are a white male and are discriminated against (this happens all the time we have legal groups, funds, and policies specifically designed for this purpose) even if you can prove absolutely beyond any doubt that it happened, it doesn't matter because you will be told you are not a 'protected class'

[Greese]

Quote from Yoj-

"In any case, if I accept (purely for argument's sake) that affirmative action is inherently flawed, how do you propose that minorities be guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities?"

Isn't that the problem?  That there is some "need" to guarantee fairness?  Who said life is fair?  It seems that the only thing most minorities suffer from is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of self esteem.  Most minority children suffer from being told that they won't succeed their whole life.  Imagine if they grew up knowing that despite the challenges of life, they can work hard and acheive anything they want?  
     We don't need government to make things "fair", we need more positive support for the children to accomplish their dreams.

-Greese

[Fatty]

It's not as simple as a lack of self esteem, but neither is it as simple as racial discrimination.

The majority of situations cited in defense of affirmative action are economic, yet the remedy for this is racial?  A child of a poor family living in a shack in the middle of nowhere is bad off, be he black, white or hispanic.  Therefore the equitable solution if you're going to give a hand to those disadvantaged by the system would be to do so based on financial background, not hereditary background.

If discrimination persists, a financial based remedy program would by definition benifit the discriminated group in a higher proportion.  If it fades out, you will see a levelling of racial proportions recieving benifits.  You would not have to make some sort of arbitrary judgement of when the playing field was evened (which is quite impossible by the way), instead simply scale admissions, opportunities downward where applicable based on real and present hardships.  Which includes hispanics, asians, and other minorites, often discounted by the cause of the day.

[jihad]

they are seen that way in part because the prejudices of society are reflected back and reinforced by the media

Part of the problem is african american culture, I know whites aren't any more intelligent than blacks but when I see/hear 'hood dialect' I can't help but think how stupid it sounds and makes them look.

It  reminds me of the old movies where blacks were always portrayed as dumb bellybutton 'Uncle Toms', except in this case it isn't white folk hanging a negative stereotype on blacks - they are doing it to themselves.

[Eagler]

and jj not to be out done:
 http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20010907-82960520.htm    

[Yoj]

Herr Fish, you pretty much guarantee that you're not going to see my point.  If you think the Asian experience in San Francisco parallels the African experience in the US its almost not worth discussing.  

However, just to touch on the most obvious difference, the asians came to America as a land of opportunity, hoping and expecting to make a better life for themselves.  Africans were forcibly relocated to a place where they had no future by definition.  How you can gloss over something so blatant is beyond me.
From there on there are a myriad of other differences - not the least of which is their second language, which, far from a handicap, helped emphasize an insular community and a social identity, something African's never had an opportunity to develop in any fundimental way - their own languages were stripped away on arrival.  Not to mention the fact that your example of San Francisco is telling.  In fact, asian success is URBAN success, while the african-american experience is essentially rural until this century.  The Chinese rural experience mostly revolved around the Ku Li building the railroads, which opened their door to America.  But you find little evidence of anyreal social success until they formed enclaves in cities and took over the service niches.

In addition, there has always been (not just in America) a hierarchy of despite.  Italians, Germans, Swedes and Irish have been despised at various times, but those who hated them generally preferred them to Asians, and preferred Asians to "darkies and Mexes".  Its easier to overcome biases when you're not "the worst that can happen".

Yes, the Asians worked hard and many found success.  Black Americans have overall been less successful.  Why is that?  They wouldn't work as hard?  Bull!  ("Yeah - they're all lazy and shiftless".)  Lack of intelligence?  Nonsense! ("Yeah - they're genetically inferior".)  Pure chance?  Uh huh!

So, let me ask - why do YOU think black Americans have not been as successful as Asians?  Here is your challenge - to give a really meaningful reason that doesn't incorporate an unfounded bias.

- Yoj

[Yoj]

Originally posted by jihad:
I can't help but think how stupid it sounds and makes them look.

Wow!  As though the way a person talked was a matter of personal choice.  I can just imagine the reactions here if you made that comment about white people from Alabama.  

I don't understand these Black kids - you'd think with that quality education, exposure to so many cultures, and all those elocution lessons they had, they'd do better.

Doh!

- Yoj

[narsus]

Well the thing is this I am 28 year old middle class american. I have never owned a slave nor do i condone it. My ancestors didn't at least as far back as I can check I am second generation Italian American. So none of my relative were even in the US during the civil war or before. Why should my money go to pay reparations that I was not directly or indirectly involved with. And how is this money going to help anyway.

And the whole attitude of everyone today is blame someone else for my misfortune, and never ever taking responsibility for ones own actions.

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: narsus ]