al sharpton...

[Eagler]

affirmative action = reverse discrimination

more times than it means equal opportunity

corporations are scared toejameless of the likes of jj and sharpton as the media then jumps in and fries their arse, guilty or not..

doesn't matter the color of ones skin, it's what is in their hearts and minds -> pre-employment interviewing and testing. For the gov to say you HAVE to have so many black, pink, green, purple ppl working at a place is WRONG! It should be the most qualified & productive regardless of sex and color. The the one signing the paychecks should be able to hire who he deems as the right individual for HIS company.

"Doing this through legislation is bound to not always be fair. The legislation exists because this society would not change itself without it - and left to itself would return to the past in a heartbeat.

- Yoj"

Don't agree Yoj, it can't go back. We are past that here in the US and in most other civilized countries. Left to accelerate with the jj's and the like will only fuel the fire of racial tension making it harder for minorities to get ahead not easier.

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]

[Yoj]

Originally posted by capt. apathy:
yoj, yes simply doing away with affirmitve action IS the answer. then just outlaw discrimanation against anyone.

Discrimination was outlawed before affirmative action came in - at least in education, housing and hiring.  It turns out to be impossible to prove discrimination in most cases.  In jobs, employers simply stated that they hired the most qualified people they could, and it just happened they were all white.  That might have occasionally been true, but usually it simply indicated that being white was a "qualification".  

Capt. I admire your idealism, but simply saying "outlaw discrimination" is naive, unless you can find an unshakably objective set of criteria to go by.  Nobody could ever find one in the past, and it ws not for lack of trying.

- Yoj

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Red Ant:
Nothing quite like a bunch of white american males discussing "the black community". Priceless  

so you need to be black to discuss the black community? does 'it' exist in a vaccuum?

the black community holds the white male community directly responsible for it's woes, how can either avoid a discussion?

 if a doctor accused you of stealing do you need to be a doctor to answer their charges?

when the black community characterizes white males in the simplistic way you have do you feel that is 'priceless' as well, or does it just go one way?

try posting an opinion and not yet another tired predictable sound bite.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Red Ant:
Nothing quite like a bunch of white american males discussing "the black community". Priceless   [/QUOTE
An extreme asumption if I ever saw one.

[SOB]

Originally posted by Yoj:
Its pretty obvious to me that we're into a subject that's too big for a forum - whole books could be written.  

In any case, if I accept (purely for argument's sake) that affirmative action is inherently flawed, how do you propose that minorities be guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities?  After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with.  Simply doing away with all affirmative action programs can't be the answer.  What's your alternative?

That question in itself is flawed.  Hell, how to you guarantee that EVERYONE is guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities.  There's bigotry everywhere, people who will consider you less for a job because you're Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Ugly, Southern, Fat, Thin, Gay, Strait, etc.  Why should I give more of a toejam about one group of people being discriminated against than others?

When whites become the minority in California will affirmative action suddenly cover them?  Affirmative action is government regulated discrimination, pure and simple.  Getting rid of it entirely sounds like a good answer to me.

And "After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with."???  I won't give you toejam about this, I just demand that you take it back!  Have you seen some of the laws that are on the books?  LOL!  


SOB

[Yoj]

And Eagler - "The the one signing the paychecks should be able to hire who he deems as the right individual for HIS company" simply means lets return to those thrilling days of yesteryear.  If you think mere profit motive will make people hire purely on ability, you're less of a judge of human nature than I had thought.  

Open that door and we're on the slippery slope back to separate drinking fountains.  

- Yoj

[SOB]

Originally posted by Yoj:



If and when that happens I agree.  However, affirmative action was never intended to regulate "discrimination against a segment of the population".  

To listen to this thread one would think that white males in America are massively unemployed because all the good jobs have been filled by less qualified minorities (and women).  When I look around that's sure not what I see.  One can always find cases of inequity - the question is, is there more or less inequity now than there was.  I submit more people are more fairly treated now than used to be.  The howls of protest from the occasional white victims sounds an awful lot more like anger over lost privilege than genuine harm.

Doing this through legislation is bound to not always be fair.  The legislation exists because this society would not change itself without it - and left to itself would return to the past in a heartbeat.

- Yoj

Oh, I see, I've been missing it the whole time.  Since I'm a white male, I'm privledged and people are beating down my door every day trying to force money and good jobs upon me.  I can't believe that got by me!


SOB

[capt. apathy]

Unfortunately the opposite has come around. I’ve worked in fab shops with men who couldn't read a tapemeasure who've had their job for along time (he had been there 7 years when I quit and probably is still there 13 years later) whining how the white guy keeps him down 'cause he cant get a promotion.  And I do my best to help all people to get improve themselves I offered on many occasions to teach this guy but he had no interest in learning, didn't need the info got all the overtime he wanted and if he knew more stuff they'd just make him do more.
  In contrast I’ve also seen minorities put in 'dumb' jobs where they don't have the opportunity to learn new skills.  In this situation I’ve gone h2h with the boss and asked for these people to be assigned to work with me. This is the only solution to ending this problem.  By reversing the discrimination you don’t end it. You just give the bigots a justification for continuing

[Yoj]

Originally posted by SOB:


That question in itself is flawed.  Hell, how to you guarantee that EVERYONE is guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities.  There's bigotry everywhere, people who will consider you less for a job because you're Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Ugly, Southern, Fat, Thin, Gay, Strait, etc.  Why should I give more of a toejam about one group of people being discriminated against than others?

When whites become the minority in California will affirmative action suddenly cover them?  Affirmative action is government regulated discrimination, pure and simple.  Getting rid of it entirely sounds like a good answer to me.

Of course there is always SOME bias toward everyone.  Still, I don't think there was ever a time in this country where, for example, left-handed people as a group were relegated to only the lowest types of work due to a society-wide prejudice.  And if and when white males actually can be shown to be a discriminated against minority in California, I would expect that affirmative action would apply to them.  Unless something better is invented.

And "After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with."???  I won't give you toejam about this, I just demand that you take it back!  Have you seen some of the laws that are on the books?  LOL!    

SOB

Lol - yeah - point well taken  

- Yoj

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Yoj:
And Eagler - "The the one signing the paychecks should be able to hire who he deems as the right individual for HIS company" simply means lets return to those thrilling days of yesteryear.  If you think mere profit motive will make people hire purely on ability, you're less of a judge of human nature than I had thought.  

- Yoj

I did & so did my peers. I didn't care if they were green, asian, blue or from mars, I always hired the most qualified person for the most I was allowed to offer. Qualified & responsible ppl under me always made my job easier with less headaches  

[Ripsnort]

Its not a question of racism anymore, its a big cultural difference...if your mama is on welfare, chances are you will be too...if your Mama is a hard worker, chances are you will be too...thats the 'cultural' connection I see.

[highflyer]

Yoj

I dont understand how you think that ANY FORM of racial profileing for the purpose of advancement is a good thing.

My question is this. You seem to give the impression that you are a black guy.

Are you In support of the Governemtal support for those that are/have been not treated fairly in the past, and that the white people now in some form or another deserve a form of unleveling of the playing field because of of an ignorant past?

If it is, then I say two wrongs to not make a right.

the past was the past, and hopefully poeple can realise this. How about we learn to progress forward, forget about skin colors.

If someone is to be hired or chosen for ANYTHING in LIFE... let the quality of the person being looked into be the deciding factor, not some Determined statistic that NEEDS to be filled.

[Yoj]

Originally posted by SOB:


Oh, I see, I've been missing it the whole time.  Since I'm a white male, I'm privledged and people are beating down my door every day trying to force money and good jobs upon me.  I can't believe that got by me!

SOB

Wheeep! wheeep!  (Sarcasm detector just went off).  You know there's the privilege that comes with being born with a silver spoon in your mouth and the privilege of being allowed to line up first, and that I was talking about the latter.

- Yoj

[capt. apathy]

wtg highflyer,
 you said what i've been trying to say, more clearly with alot less words.

[Yoj]

Originally posted by highflyer:
the past was the past, and hopefully poeple can realise this. How about we learn to progress forward, forget about skin colors.

How about we do that.  Its by far the best way out.  The problem is nobody seems to know how.  

I think that my main point in jumping into this thread is that most of white America seems to think we're a lot further down that road that we really are.  For every employer we have (like Eagler) who sees his life is easier if he hires colorblind, we have a dozen who hire minorities fairly only because they have to - because they honestly believe that people from that group (whatever it is) will not be good employees (for whatever reason).  And that goes for landlords, store owners (who follow me so's I don't shoplift), and so on.  If you haven't lived it, its easy to think it the world is different than it is.  America is still a seriously racist country (and no - I'm not saying only white people are racists.  There are few segments of this society that aren't).  Its just become rather gauche to express it.

So, by all means, lets all throw off that stupid baggage and (to paraphrase Dr. King) start judging not by the color of skin but by the content of character.  If you know a way to do that I nominate you to lead the way - I'll follow.  I'm afraid there is no clear path there and we're left trying to use laws to do what should be done by conscience and common sense.  (I have always noted that commen sense was even more rare than common courtesy).

- Yoj