Author Topic: 8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested  (Read 4789 times)

Offline GtoRA2

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8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2006, 10:05:35 AM »
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Originally posted by Pooh21
The AH BBS soap opera gets better and better, Snipers, Strippers,PETA, P-51s,multiple personalitys, and evil coworkers. Now finally someone comes back with talking fake engrish and deletes all his posts after he starts talking normal again!:rofl

Come on Beetle the only way to win back our respect now is to come in tomarrow and Claim some Evil-Coworker kept you trussed up in his basement like a missing co-ed for the last 3 years, and claim the Evil Coworker posted all that to slander your good name.


er a Fat,Balding Middle-aged,beady-eyed coed, well you get the idea.



Nah, beatle is just proving England has trailer trash as well.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2006, 10:23:21 AM »
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Are you sure about that?
Speaking of the main block of N-Europe (Germany, France BeNeLux, even Italy, Spain and Austria) you can refer to them as one block because of Schengen.
That's a wooping number of heads (Close to the population of the USA), and surrounded with streams of thugs from the old eastern block as well as Arabic lots as well. And yet they haven't caught up the legacy yet.
And while the new gunlaw in the UK hasn't reduced gun crime, they haven't ecactly been increasing, as you imply here above.?


I said catching up. Let's look at the "old eastern block."

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Fallout: the criminal nexus
Porous Eastern European borders have exacerbated a number of social problems, including crime and prostitution. Poland has been especially hard-hit; 63% of Polish crimes are committed by ex-Soviets, including 100 Ukraine-based gangs (Gazeta Wyborcza, 18 Jan. and 16 June 1993).
Post-Soviet criminal gangs specialize in highway robbery—literally. Ukrainians, Russians, Lithuanians and Georgians who had immigrated illegally began by robbing ex-Soviet service men returning home from Germany. The thieves had obtained computer printouts listing the types and license plates of cars owned by the soldiers, and dates when their owners would end their tour of duty. Clearly, the mafia had good sources of information in the Russian military establishment in Germany (Spiegel, no. 25, 1993). In 1992/93 the scope of highway robberies widened to include TIR-trucks, especially vehicles transporting alcohol and cigarettes. In 1992 several hundred attacks were recorded. By 1993, Polish criminals realized how profitable this line of activity was and now commit 50% of the robberies themselves (Polityka, 29 May 1993).
Germany is a key target of gangs from the former USSR as well as Polish groups. According to Anatoli Olenikov, a high-ranking Russian official involved in fighting the mafia, about 300 Russian, Ukrainian and Caucasian gangs conduct drug trafficking, car theft, extortion, prostitution and robbery, and these groups have divided Germany into their own "zones of influence".(Spiegel, no. 25, 1993).
http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/en/publications/commentary/com38.asp


Now, as to gun crime, does a unified Russian Mafia have the same kind of street wars you have with the multiple factions involved with gangland crime in the US? This material indicates a controlled, centralized criminal market. For casual crime, do you need to kill an unarmed man to rob him -- no. In the time between the "War on Alcohol" and the "War on Drugs" organized crime in the US posted fairly low body counts. Now, while sources of supply are somewhat unified distribution is very competitive.

Lets consider the Muslim refugee angle. I seem to recall quite a bit of unpleasantness in France recently.

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The attacks were triggered when two Muslim teenagers were electrocuted last week after they leapt into a power substation in an attempt to evade a police who had set up an identity checkpoint. Several dozen policemen and assailants have since been injured in street fighting, but no further deaths have been reported.
Still, some of the violence has been devastating. On Wednesday night, youths firebombed a bus here with the passengers inside. As the last passenger, a 56-year-old woman, descended the steps on crutches, an assailant splashed her with gasoline and another threw a flaming rag at her, according to residents and police reports.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/04/AR2005110400183.html


Now this unrest likely lacks a lot of funding that is used to buy weapons in the US drug wars. No Job, no money, no weapon when you riot. Let's hope sympathetic parties in the refugees' home countries don't decide to make up for that shortcoming.

Back to the UK.

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THE number of offences involving firearms in England and Wales has been increasing each year since 1997, according to the Home Office.
Firearms incidents recorded by the police have nearly trebled in eight years.
Provisional figures released last month showed that firearms offences had increased by 5 per cent on last year, to a total of 11,160. There were 4,903 such offences in 1997.
The possession of handguns was banned in Britain that year after the Dunblane massacre. Yet the illegal ownership of handguns is believed to be higher than it has ever been, with nearly 300,000 illegal guns estimated to be in circulation.
The increase in gun crime is linked to gang activity and the illegal drugs trade.
But Chris Fox, the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, said: “This year has seen a fall in the number of fatalities from 70 to 60, with the use of shotguns down by 13 per cent and the use of handguns down by 8 per cent.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1878913,00.html


As noted, gun crime up though fatalities have dropped somewhat. Of course, it's hard to tell what the statistics really reflect. Has the ban simply translated into the ability for armed criminals to otherwise victimize a wider range of easier targets (as reflected by a notable increase on general violent crime and robberies) opposed to getting involved in riskier situations? Not a trade off I would be all that proud about. And, as noted, there are apparently urban areas of Britain that give any US city a run for their money but perhaps just fewer of them per square mile and total population distribution. We have a lot of big cities, and very big suburbs around those cities (100,000 population sized) that expand the problem (but only in certain poverty stricken neighborhoods). In the UK, you seem to get pretty quickly into the quaint towns and villages shortly after you leave London and other big cities. US crime statistics reflect that trend as well:

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The five least violent states–North Dakota, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, and South Dakota–all have “weak gun laws” according to Brady criteria.[9] [Edit: and more rural vs urban demographics as well]. In 2004, RTC states had an average violent crime rate of 388.6, while Brady’s “strong gun law” (non-RTC) states rate of 491.2 was 26.4% higher. Brady’s favorite states had a 39.1% higher murder rate, a 74.8% higher robbery rate, and 15.1% higher aggravated assault rate. RTC states had a 18.9% higher rate of rape, but it is interesting to note that the rate is dropping faster in RTC states than non-RTC states: Between 1995 and 1996, 10 states enacted right-to-carry. By 2004, they experienced a 19.2% greater annual decrease in the rate of rape than the 12 non-RTC states and D.C. This occurred despite the fact that the overall violent crime rate fell faster in the non-RTC states.
http://newsbusters.org/node/6568


And the statistics are apples and oranges to begin with, at least somewhat.

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The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn’t subsequently prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as possible.
http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml


FWIW, violent crime specifically and firearm crime in general (with some minor blips) has been decreasing in the US during the UK gun ban period. They were decreasing in the years leading up to some fairly minor US gun regulation around the same time, and have continued to decrease.

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Total violent crime in the U.S. has dropped 25 percent since 1994, the FBI statistics show. The report does not explain the reasons for the trend, but criminologists and law enforcement officials attribute the decline to a variety of factors including stricter law enforcement, longer prison terms for repeat offenders, community policing and an aging population…
But the figures provide a window into the killings: 90 percent of victims were adults; 77 percent were males; 48.7 percent of murder victims were white; 48.5 percent were black; 92 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders; 84.7 percent of white victims were killed by whites.
In about 55 percent of murder cases last year, authorities found a previous relationship between victim and assailant. In 45 percent of the cases, no known relationship was established between the victim and the assailant.
Firearms were used in 71 percent of the reported homicides, compared with 13 percent in which knives were used. In 7 percent, "personal" weapons -- hands, fists and feet -- were used to commit the murders.
The FBI figures show that in murder cases where victim and offender knew one another, 32 percent of females were killed by their husbands or boyfriends, and 2.5 percent of males were killed by their wives or girlfriends.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/25/fbi.violent.crime/


Now the one interesting thing not noted, is that while 71 percent of the homicides involved firearms what are the specific percentages relative to gangland crime and domestic crime. My bet would be that the figures are heavily skewed since it’s fairly rare to hear of a gangland killing not involving a firearm (though stabbings are not that uncommon) and fairly common to hear of domestic disputes involving knives and blunt objects.

Charon
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 10:35:36 AM by Charon »

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2006, 05:45:38 PM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Nah, beatle is just proving England has trailer trash as well.
HEY HEY HEY!!!! Watch that trailer trash stuff there buddy! :mad:
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2006, 05:50:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Maverick
HEY HEY HEY!!!! Watch that trailer trash stuff there buddy! :mad:
<----------------<<<<





You have an RV thats not a trailer! ;)


 I was talking singlewide mobile home with trash in the yard etc. You know the type. The kinda guy who beats his wife who may be his cousin, really bad teeth, think they know it all, etc.




 :D

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #124 on: July 27, 2006, 06:03:36 PM »
Well I do on occasion beat my wife. I beat her to the bathroom, beat her to the TV remote, beat her to the ice cream, beat her to the door when we're going somewhere................   :p  :D
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #125 on: July 27, 2006, 06:57:27 PM »
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Originally posted by Maverick
Well I do on occasion beat my wife. I beat her to the bathroom, beat her to the TV remote, beat her to the ice cream, beat her to the door when we're going somewhere................   :p  :D




Don't women thing being beaten to the bathroom is a crime agaist humanity? :rofl

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #126 on: July 27, 2006, 08:50:19 PM »
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Moving guns is no harder than moving Cocaine, if not easier for a variety of detection reasons. If needed: "Just add "x" number of weapons and "X" amount of ammon to the next 100kg shipment Raoul, and deduct the cost please..."


The difference between smuggling drugs and cocaine is that cocaine sells for far more.

If you import a kilo of hard drugs into the UK, it's final street price is upwards of $80,000 a kilo. A handgun and some ammo weighs about a kilo.

One of the major ways of importing cocaine into the UK is by using drug mules from the Caribbean, who smuggle in a kilo or 2 at a time, and get paid a couple of grand (plus airfares etc). Do the same with guns, and they would be far too expensive for most criminals.

Major drug dealers no doubt do smuggle guns, as they need them to protect themselves from other drug gangs. But smuggling guns to sell to common criminals just isn't worth while.

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Perhaps the US just has way more Manchesters per square mile?


The problem with that is the FBI breaks down murder rates by community type. At its best, the US murder rate approaches the British average. Even small towns in the US, 10,000 or less population, have a higher murder rate than the UK including the big cities.

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Perhaps the drug distribution infrastructure is more "results driven" in the US high crime areas?


Even if you exclude all drug related murders in the US (although including those carried out by addicts to fund habits), the US still has a much higher murder rate than the UK including drug murders.

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And gun crime hasn't decreased in the UK since the 1997 ban.


Depends what you measure. If you measure something absolutely quantifiable, like murders committed with firearms, it has. If you take nebulous figures, like police recording of incidents where "firearms" were reported, it has increased, but that's far more to do with police recording of incidents that didn't use to be worth a mention.

Of course, the "ban" in 1997 was in fact a further tightening of already tight laws, so its effect on gun crime was marginal.

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You also see plenty of daylight/resident home invasions (which you don't see in the US all that much)


Actually you do see them in the US, but the FBI classifies many of them as robberies rather than burglaries.

About 15% of robberies in the US occur in private residences, in the UK, where robberies in the home tend to be classified as burglaries, the figure is about 6%

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because, as best I can gather from this board and on the net, not only is the homeowner barred from firearms for defense but discouraged legally from providing any defense. http://www.wmsa.net/pubs/reason/rea...crime_in_uk.htm


No, the government issued guidelines to homeowners on the legal basis of self defence a couple of years ago. To quote the director of public prosecutions:

"If you are confronted by a burglar in your own home and you fear yourself and members of your family are about to be attacked, you are entitled to take action to incapacitate that burglar"

"The key thing to bear in mind is that, as long as someone hasn't stepped over that line into retribution or revenge, it is quite difficult to perceive of a level of violence that would not be regarded as reasonable by a prosecutor."

As to Joyce Lee Malcolm, see is either lying or very, very mistaken. From the article you linked to:

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That willingness was further undermined by a broad revision of criminal law in 1967 that altered the legal standard for self-defense. Now everything turns on what seems to be "reasonable" force against an assailant, considered after the fact. As Glanville Williams notes in his Textbook of Criminal Law, that requirement is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it [self-defense] still forms part of the law."


What Glanville Williams says is that there is some doubt if "reasonablesness" is still part of the law:

"The requirement of reasonableness is unhappy. Enough has been said in criticism of it, and the CLRC has recommended that it should be expunged from the law. In practice, as we have seen, the requirement may be construed indulgently to the defendant, for, as Holmes J memorably said in the United States Supreme Court, “detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.” As we shall see in the next section, the requirement is now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law."

So, it's not the case that there is doubt that self defence is part of the law, there's doubt about whether your actions in self defence have to be reasonable (ie self defence is being interpreted more leniently than it was)

Another "fact" from Malcolm:

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and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S.


The USDOJ's National Criminal Victimization Survey says that in 17.5 of domestic burglaries, the householder was asleep at the start of the burglary, in another 11% the householder was carrying out "other activities at home". There's another 20%+ covered by "don't knows" and "other" that would also have a percentage at home.

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Why twist it around? I didn't say America won the Battle of Britain. The RAF did a fantastic job fighting the BOB. But, long term reality is Germany would have been back eventually and they would have invaded without America coming into the war. The BOB didn't prevent the invasion, only delayed it. American involvement prevented that invasion long term.


When exactly would the invasion have been?

In 1940 the RAF defeated German invasion plans.

In 1941 Germany invaded Russia at about the time the weather became practical for an invasion, and spent the rest of the year focusing on Russia.

In 1942 the Germans were fully embroiled in Russia, and losing.

American involvement in Europe (inc Russia) didn't become large scale until after the German failure at Stalingrad, and there was no way the Germans were coming back from that.

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I will bet anyone here that I could get a handgun in england in less than a week.


I'd take you up on it. I don't think you've got any conception of how difficult it is to get a real gun in the UK, and what connections you need.

If guns are easily available, the police will seize a lot of them, right? Yet every time you go looking for the numbers of guns seized by police, you find they add in toy guns, replicas, and anything that looks like a gun, to bump up the numbers.

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And if it is possible to get a handgun then why not more handgun crime?


Faulty premise.

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Several reasons... the penalties are the biggest but.


Don't you have a death penalty? Sentences in the US are much longer than in the UK.

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ake england.. at the turn of the century there were no laws against carrying handguns


Handguns were also rather expensive and rare, but becoming less so.

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and there were no murders.


There were 2 policemen shot dead in 1909, 3 in 1910, 1 in 1912, 3 in 1913. 9 in 5 years.

That's with a population about half the current population.

There was 1 policeman shot dead in 1995, 1 in 2003, 1 in 2005. 3 in 11 years.

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white on white gun homicide is rare.


Still far more common than all homicide, by all racial groups, in the UK.

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Firearms incidents recorded by the police have nearly trebled in eight years.


That's the key phrase "recorded by the police". Years ago the police used to try to catch real criminals, because the government has made that too difficult, they focus on other things now.

"The chief constable of South Wales has issued a warning about giving toy guns to children as Christmas gifts.

Barbara Wilding said the force deployed armed officers to 263 incidents - many involving youngsters with imitation firearms. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4536138.stm

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nd, as noted, there are apparently urban areas of Britain that give any US city a run for their money


No, there are one or two areas of Britain with gun crime comparable to America's average, (ie our worst is equal to your average), there is nowhere in Britain equal to America's worst, and our average is considerably lower than the US average.

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The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn’t subsequently prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as possible.


The US figures reflect homicides as initially recorded by police. However, they exclude negligent manslaughter.

The UK figures are for homicides as recorded by police, including negligent manslaughter. Records are of course kept as to the outcomes of trials, inquests etc, (as they are in the US) but the published figures are for homicides as initially recorded.

So the only substantial difference in recording between the UK and US is that the US does not count negligent manslaughter, the UK does (and it can be a fair number, too, eg 20 Chinese immigrants who died in Morecombe Bay, 58 Chinese immigrants who suffocated in the back of a lorry being smuggled into the UK, etc.

Offline texace

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« Reply #127 on: July 27, 2006, 09:57:02 PM »
What are we arguing about again?

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2006, 12:11:02 AM »
Originally by Nashwan
The difference between smuggling drugs and cocaine is that cocaine sells for far more.


Really..... perhaps you can explain how cocaine isn't a drug :huh ......





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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #129 on: July 28, 2006, 06:23:05 AM »
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The difference between smuggling drugs and cocaine is that cocaine sells for far more.


Really..... perhaps you can explain how cocaine isn't a drug


Sorry, supposed to be guns and cocaine.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #130 on: July 28, 2006, 08:17:09 AM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
If you import a kilo of hard drugs into the UK, it's final street price is upwards of $80,000 a kilo. A handgun and some ammo weighs about a kilo.
Bad math.

Take a kilo and sell it to cover cost of manufacturing it, smuggling it and so forth and you're looking at a profit probably around $2k-$6K depending on how many people there are between the manufacturing and it's arrival at the docks. You then distribute it to people who have to buy it, then cut it, then resell it, making even less profit. They then distribute it to people who actually have to buy it from them to sell it either to another dealer or to customers. There could be several middle men in the transaction.

A gun does not need to be processed, reprocessed and then divied up again. It's a one time sale for the smuggler. Depending on the guns purchased, the profit margin could be huge (AKs).

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #131 on: July 28, 2006, 08:27:15 AM »
The big news last night on Japanese television was the story of a guy who ran up to a woman stopped at a red light. He opened her car door, pointed a pistol at her face and pulled the trigger.

He grabbed her bag and ran away with 3.5 million yen (~ US$30,000).

It was his 10th time to do it and he's still at large.

BTW, it was a water pistol that looked something like this:



True story. I couldn't make up anything that good. The news here is better value than the TV shows.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2006, 08:30:56 AM »
Have they pulled all of the water pistols off of the shelf yet?

Offline Angus

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« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2006, 08:34:21 AM »
Uhh, - This:
"My point is that the criminals can still get handguns...it is only the law abiding who can't."

Hanguns are not really necessary for the law abiding citizent for home protection. You can do that just as well, if not better, with something...BIGGER. And for hunting, - they're not so necessary either.
(Although boar hunters prefer one, - been there ;))
If you're saying that they're necessary because of the people needing to carry them in the open, - well, then most of us "Euros" do not consider us to live in such an environment. And most shudder at the thought of that kind of setup.


And Charon, - I see you have put quite some work into speculating, reflecting and data mining. Well, all good. But what sticks to my head in this ever-going debate(s) US-EURO is still that you have more gundead, rapes, armed robbery, murders, and people in prison than for instance in the whole Schengen area. And by quite a bit.

EDIT, addition. Note joking, could have sworn that I saw a Japanese referring post on the list when I pressed "reply". I went back and it was gone. :confused:
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #134 on: July 28, 2006, 08:37:22 AM »
Oh, was Rolex post I guess.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)