Author Topic: 8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested  (Read 4002 times)

Offline Kurt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1149
      • http://www.clowns-of-death.com
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2006, 10:53:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
If I lived in DC


Hey, easy there.. Lets be careful where we bring up living in D.C.  You know, women and children read this board and I don't think they should have to read that kind of vile remark..  D.C. should never be discussed in a polite family environment. :D
--Kurt
Supreme Exalted Grand Pooh-bah Clown
Clowns of Death <Now Defunct>
'A pair of jokers beats a pair of aces'

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2006, 11:19:25 AM »
:rofl
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13958
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2006, 01:04:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eureka101
Point of story not location of crime, but blanket statement “armed citizens reduce crime”.  - Not true in all countries as many countries unarmed with low crime. Maybe USA need guns to citizens in this way (many dangerous criminals, many also with gun), but these extreme measures not necessary in other countries, and crime still lower than USA.


Again, point of story is a man with a gun saved 8 other people who were in the process of being murdered by another person with a knife in the US.
Read the article.
If you want to talk comparative situations start your own thread beetle. I am firmly convinced your total obsession with guns is in full swing no matter how you try to hide your identity.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2006, 01:25:53 PM »
There is a complete ban on cocaine in all 50 United States and every bordering country. Fortunately, this ban fully prevents cocaine from entering the country. There are not mountains of it moved in every metropolitan area daily, no, not at all. I have absolutely no doubt that a full ban on handguns, especially with the confiscation of all legal handguns, would totally prevent criminals from gaining access to these weapons in the same way the cocaine ban prevents criminals from gaining access to tons of cocaine daily.

Similarly, without any guns in the picture I would be fully comfortable defending my home from thugs intent on robbery and rape if we all had were just our bare hands or perhaps blunt or pointy objects. My soft (once somewhat hard though... ugh) 41 year old body would allow me to easily master a half-dozen hardened, pumped, muscleheaded career criminals (or even one, for that matter).

However, if we were all armed, the fact that I am an experienced weapons user with some military training would obviously put me at a severe disadvantage against these TV show and Playstation educated, gangsta side pistol holding criminals. The same folk who can fire off 18 rounds without hitting their intended target on more than a few occasions. People who are so ideologically driven, that they would risk their lives to continue their aggression once they knew I had a gun, foregoing the opportunity to walk down the street in search of easier meat. Yeah, can’t ban common self defense weapons fast enough for me.

Charon

[edit: FWIW, regardless of TV and paper statistics and perhaps the musings on this board, very few Americans live lives of daily fear outside of the poorest, crime ridden neighborhoods. 95 percent of the crime occurs in just 5 counties. I know more people who have been killed by alcohol (3)than in any type of violent crime (0). We have over 200 million people living in the US. It's a big place and even impressive paper crime statistics, or for that matter even an event like 9/11 or Katrina, get diluted pretty quickly to the point where you might not even know a friend of a friend of a friend who was involved in such an incident. Particularly if your demographics are even remotely favorable. And if you want to stop violent crime you need to address the source of the crime and not waste time on the tools. A lot more bang for the buck (pun intended).

I have guns to enjoy shooting (when I can make the 1.5 hr trek to the range) but I keep one in a quick open finger touch electronic safe in the bedroom just in case. I also buy the occasional lottery ticket. It would just suck to need one and have it locked up and inaccessible elsewhere. Really, a life and death suck even if the odds of such an encounter are very slim. I do like the option to have that final determination of life or death should it ever arise.]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 01:53:30 PM by Charon »

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2006, 01:51:40 PM »
"I have absolutely no doubt that a full ban on handguns, especially with the confiscation of all legal handguns, would totally prevent criminals from gaining access to these weapons in the same way the cocaine ban prevents criminals from gaining access to tons of cocaine daily."

Belive it or not, - there can be such a reality, - well at least outside the USA.
In my little country, there hardly is an incident at all with handguns.
Cocaine? Yes. Smuggling.

Only once saw a handgun in the country, - an artifact that belonged to a collector WITH license (yes there are exceptions)
Never saw cocaine.
Wouldn't have a clue how to acquire either of those.

Isn't that nice ?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2006, 01:58:53 PM »
People wear seat belts... does that mean that they are wracked with paranoid and unfounded fear about being injured in a car accident?   Are their lives dominated by thinking about seat belts?   Does the act of putting on the seatbelt mean that they have given in to their fear and live a life of fear?

Having a gun in the house or even carrying one can be much less trouble than using a seatbelt.   Both offer a measure of comfort rather than fear.

The good part for us firearms rights guys it that there are 200 million or so firearms floating around in the U.S. and not even the most zealous anti gun nut would say that we could put that genie back in the bottle.

Nope... all that would happen... and most Americans know this... is that the good guys would give up theirs and the predators would still be able to get all the guns they wanted.

Tougher laws on gun crimes is the only way to reduce gun crime.   Nothing will ever eliminate it here in the U.S.

lazs

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2006, 02:11:07 PM »
Quote
Only once saw a handgun in the country, - an artifact that belonged to a collector WITH license (yes there are exceptions)
Never saw cocaine.
Wouldn't have a clue how to acquire either of those.


That's great. Of course, Iceland is somewhat more remote than the US, and has no bordering countries. Also, the populaiton of Iceland is 1/10th (roughly) the population of just Chicago (300k vs 3 mil). I imagine the Icelandic market is too small and too much trouble to be worth servicing to any great degree by organized crime.

FWIW, There are many people in Chicago who have never seen a handgun, or cocaine or would know how to acquire either. Perhaps as many as the entire population of Iceland. And, the suburban town of Naperville, which has half the population of Iceland, has a 0 percent murder rate compared to Iceland's .5. Hard to compare apples and oranges on these issues.

[edit: I imagine it also helps that: Iceland is the 5th richest country in the world based on GDP per capita at purchasing power parity. It is also ranked number two on the 2005 United Nations Human Development Index. Hard to see a motivator for most economic-based criminal activity there.]

Charon
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 02:19:03 PM by Charon »

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2006, 02:20:03 PM »
Where I live in Dixon there is a very high incidence of gun ownership but the homicide rate with firearms is lower that iceland.    There are many incidents of citizens stopping crime with a legal firearm too.

As charon says... you can't do any comparissons like that.

lazs

Offline BGBMAW

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2288
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2006, 02:24:56 PM »
iceland...hahaha

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2006, 03:03:26 PM »
hahaha yerself.
Charon:That's great. Of course, Iceland is somewhat more remote than the US, and has no bordering countries."

Who is remote to whom? Does the USA have weapon problem with it's biggest bordering country...Canada?
Australia is an "Island". So is NZ. So is jolly old Britain.

Then:

" I imagine the Icelandic market is too small and too much trouble to be worth servicing to any great degree by organized crime."

Are most of the gundead from organized killings?  What is the background of most of the shooters? Answer: It's a mess.Not very organized. Mostly a spur-of-the-moment thing, or people unbalanced, - things that get out of hand. But yes, servicing the crimeworld with artillery and ammo is a small marked. But...what about the UK then?

And the Lazs, -
"Where I live in Dixon there is a very high incidence of gun ownership but the homicide rate with firearms is lower that iceland. There are many incidents of citizens stopping crime with a legal firearm too."

Please support this, or at least explain better. Last time I checked, our homicide rate with firearms is 0%. I have to go several years back to find a kill with a gun, but out of my head I remember some 3. (2 of which cases where the shooter commited suicide thereafter, - crime of passion).

Where I live, there's also guns on many homes. I've only got 3 though, and no proper handgun.  The homicide rate for our country as whole (Skipping the capital and area around) cannot be bettered downwards easily, for it's been at nil for the last years.

What does that tell?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2006, 04:34:26 PM »
Quote
Who is remote to whom? Does the USA have weapon problem with it's biggest bordering country...Canada?
Australia is an "Island". So is NZ. So is jolly old Britain.


Well, all of those countries combined have a population slightly over 1/3 of that of the United States. Today we have more guns on the street with easier access to weapons in general, but the challenges to importing those weapons are much decreased in the US regardless. And again, there is no problem moving mountains of illegal drugs, imigrants, etc across the border as needed. The square miles of land border and port entry points pales by comparison to the US in those examples listed.

You also have to look at the range of economic conditions present in these countries, and compare and contrast to the US. You have to look at social decisions made in the 1960s that created bastions of crime in the US that are hard to reengineer today. You have to look at thug culture where the easy way out (huge short term financial rewards) lets the hopeless have a shot of the American Deam (as seen on TV). The fact that the end is a life in prison or in the ground doesn't seem all that important to most young thugs. However, Britain and much of Europe seems to be catching up to our legacy in recent years in these areas, in my general opinion.

Quote
Are most of the gundead from organized killings? What is the background of most of the shooters? Answer: It's a mess.Not very organized. Mostly a spur-of-the-moment thing, or people unbalanced, - things that get out of hand. But yes, servicing the crimeworld with artillery and ammo is a small marked. But...what about the UK then?


Organized crime (not just the Italian Mob anymore) moves the product into the markets from overseas that creates the environment for "messy" street crime during distribution. The street gangs, which are growing sophisticated to the point of committing Web and mortgage fraud distribute it for a tremendous profit. The killings are fairly loose (think 1920s prohabition) ranging from solid territority issues to layered revenge killings that initially over some girl or someone flashing the wrong sign in the wrong neighborhood, etc.

Moving guns is no harder than moving Cocaine, if not easier for a variety of detection reasons. If needed: "Just add "x" number of weapons and "X" amount of ammon to the next 100kg shipment Raoul, and deduct the cost please..."

For the UK comparison you have to look at all the differences between the two countries, from socioeconomic factors to how the justice systems works against the victim to the point that "take what you want and get out" seems to be a SOP. http://porcupinenine.blogspot.com/2005/10/comparing-us-and-uk-murder-rates.html

Quote
The same disparity can be seen in the UK. While the country as a whole has a low rate of murder, there are areas where the murder rate is high. In Glasgow, Scotland, the murder rate is 5.9 per 100,000 (cite). In London, by contrast, it's 2.1 per 100,000 (cite). In the Manchester metro area, it's 10 per 100,000. And in the Manchester neighborhoods of Moss Side and Longsight, and in the Manchester suburb of Hulme, the murder rate is a monstrous 140 per 100,000 (cite)-- which is considerably worse than Washington, DC, America's most murderous city.


Perhaps the US just has way more Manchesters per square mile? Perhaps the drug distribution infrastructure is more "results driven" in the US high crime areas?

Quote
Like in the US, the majority of the murders in the UK are being committed by gang members, mostly against other gang members. This is true whether one speaks of murders with or without guns. The murders are not distributed evenly across either country; they are localized in rather compact "hot spots" which bring up the murder rate for the whole country. And even though the UK has a total handgun ban, its hot spots of murder are just as bad as those in the US, and they are getting worse.


And gun crime hasn't decreased in the UK since the 1997 ban.

Quote
If gun bans prevented murder, we would expect the murder rate in the UK to have been trending downward since 1997, if not before then (in the decade preceding the 1997 total ban on handguns, the UK government passed a series of laws and regulations making it harder and harder to get guns). We don't... we see a country where the rate of murder is increasing, where there are some areas that are more dangerous than America's most dangerous city, and where criminals have all the guns they need. When we look at the UK, we see a country where the violent crime rate is 2.5 times higher than that of the US.


You also see plenty of daylight/resident home invasions (which you don't see in the US all that much) because, as best I can gather from this board and on the net, not only is the homeowner barred from firearms for defense but discouraged legally from providing any defense. http://www.wmsa.net/pubs/reason/reason_nov02_crime_in_uk.htm

Quote
• In 1973 a young man running on a road at night was stopped by the police and found to be carrying a length of steel, a cycle chain, and a metal clock weight. He explained that a gang of youths had been after him. At his hearing it was found he had been threatened and had previously notified the police. The justices agreed he had a valid reason to carry the weapons. Indeed, 16 days later he was attacked and beaten so badly he was hospitalized. But the prosecutor appealed the ruling, and the appellate judges insisted that carrying a weapon must be related to an imminent and immediate threat. They sent the case back to the lower court with directions to convict.

• In 1987 two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, "My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life." In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

• In 1994 an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

• In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted £5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.


I suppose that's one way to reduce deadly confrontations of any kind -- just give the criminals what amounts to a free shot at your goods. Doesn't sit all that right with me, especially if they decide to have some fun with my wife or threaten my kid.

Charon
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 05:35:41 PM by Charon »

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #101 on: July 25, 2006, 04:34:46 PM »
Beet, you're acting the bellybutton here. I thought better of you.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Jackal1

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9092
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #102 on: July 25, 2006, 05:18:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Beet, you're acting the bellybutton here.  


 
Now there`s a news flash.
:rofl
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2006, 05:21:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Where I live in Dixon  



lol
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
8 stabbed at grocery store, co-worker arrested
« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2006, 06:45:10 PM »
Man who type fake engrish have small noodle.