Motorcycle helmet law?

[Maverick]

Laz,

Stop trying to put words in my mouth about what I posted.I did not post about the rights of the state. I merely pointed out the legal situation regarding driving. It is state regulated, licensed and is not a right granted by the constitution.

Going on with your post it is the "right", if you will, of the state to regulate that which is not covered by the Federal side and that which the population allows through the action of their representatives in their state capital. If the legislature mandates helmets and seatbelts it is that state's "right" to do so if their population does not prohibit it through their representatives. One might say that those regulations came about because some one put a bug the the ear of the state legislature and got it passed. If you don't like it you have 2 options. ignore it and pay the penalty for civil disobedience, or start a legislative review of it and get it repealed.

[bj229r]

This stuff doesn't translate to bbs boards, but they are relevant stats:

http://www.abateflorida.com/html/body_dot-statistics.html

(NOTE: In the year 2004 which this table represents, helmeted and non-helmeted riders had about 3,800 accidents each--200 fatal accidents for those WITH helmets, 188 for those without....The only category that had appreciable difference was the ' no injury column--helmets had 270, non-helmets had 369... and these injuries were not serious)

To all Motorcycle Rights Organizations and interested parties

The following is an economic impact study done for the first five years of our amended helmet law. The motorcycle registration figures are compiled from the statistics of the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles. The fees come from the license and registration bureau. From 1999 to 2004 our motorcycle registrations increased from 198,601 to 419,491. That is an increase of approximately 111%. The following is the estimated revenue increase from the registrations and bike purchases.

220,890 motorcycles at an average of $10,000 each 2,208,900,000.00

Sales tax at 6% 132,534,000.00

Registration fee for motorcycles 26.40 5,433,918.60

Change of title 29.75 6,571,477.50

Buy tag 10.00 2,208,900.00

---------------

Total 2,355,648,296.10

This is a low estimate as it doesn’t include antique motorcycles or mopeds. This is over TWO BILLION DOLLARS in five years that has been put into the Florida economy. Over 145 million dollars in taxes alone went into the Florida state treasury. This does not include the almost 3 billion dollars put into the economy from Bike Week and Biketoberfest the past five years. Remember that the registration fees are annual so they would increase with each year from 1999 to 2004. I hope these figures will help anyone who has heard that Florida motorcyclist don’t pay their fair share.

Respectfully,

James D. “Doc” Reichenbach II

Then there is the main-stream media take on the matter: (notice the salamanders don't mention the more-than-doubling of registered bikes in the state, which affect the stats more than anything else)

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/fl_cycle_deaths.html

Florida Motorcycle Deaths Soar After Helmet Law Repeal

 
 August 8, 2005
Motorcyclist deaths in Florida have rapidly increased since Gov. Jeb Bush signed a law in 2000 repealing the state's mandatory motorcycle helmet law.

The number of fatal motorcycle accidents increased more than 81 percent in the three years after the repeal took effect according to a study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

Throughout the country fatal motorcycle accidents increased 48 percent, in large part because of the growing number of aging baby boomers riding powerful motorcycles.

Deaths among Florida riders 21 and under nearly tripled after 2000. Riders younger than 21 are still required by state law to wear helmets.(so wtf does THAT have to do with helmet laws?)

''The numbers are pretty compelling that Florida has paid a high price,'' said Rae Tyson, a spokesman for the federal agency. ``There is enough here for any state contemplating a repeal to realize there are serious consequences.''

While the report suggests that some of the increase in motorcycle deaths can be attributed to increased ridership in the state, critics of the Florida helmet law repeal point out that the non-helmeted fatality rate per 10,000 registered motorcyclists increased from 0.7 fatalities in 1998 to 6.1 in 2002.

Medical costs for motorcycle riders involved in accidents in Florida followed the increase in fatalities. In 1998 and 1999, the acute care hospital charges for head-brain-skull principal injury cases per 10,000 registered motorcycles were $311,549 and $428,347 respectively.

The comparable figures for 2001 and 2002 were $605,854 and $610,386, adjusted for inflation.

The motorcycle group that successfully lobbied legislators in 2000 to lift the helmet requirement contends that NHTSA is biased against riders who do not use helmets. The group argues that the increase in deaths can be largely attributed to the increasing popularity of motorcycle riding.

The lengthy study was conducted for NHTSA by Preusser Research Group, a Connecticut research firm that specializes in transportation and highway safety issues.



The study does not fully blame the increase in deaths on riders without helmets, noting that alcohol use and speed also likely played a role

(Well the dipsticks CAN'T blame it on that, as in FLA the stats simply do not support their assertions---MY TAKE: kids on crotch rockets wear helmets because they match the paint job of the bike...purely style....Harley riders are more likley not to wear helmets, and are usually older--- 90% of all motorcycle fatalities are those who have been riding less than 2 years)

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Nifty
So, you think we shouldn't license anyone, shouldn't enforce traffic laws, shouldn't require insurance, and shouldn't register vehicles?

License? You got to be pooping me.
Like I said ......... a trained monkey can pass a licensing exam in most states.
The monkey would still have to pay for the exam though and more than likely he could drive better than the majority on the road today.
I`d much rather about 75% of the morons behind the wheel nowadays be able to drive....period. I think common sense should be mandatory.
Only thing the license is, is a sham. A money maker.....................for nothing.
Of course a drivers license is a neat way to keep tabs on everyone that has one.
Traffic laws? Give me a break.
Insurance? Auto insurance is possibly the biggest scam ever legalized.
Vehicle registration? Oh yea. I think it`s just peachy to pay for registering an auto in order for it to be allowed to travel on a Federal, state or county road.......
.........that we have already paid for and continue to pay for their upkeep. Just peachy.  

[Hawklore]

Look what I got!








It's just too damn easy nowadays.

[Dago]

Originally posted by lazs2
If you made everyone wear a nomex firesuit and helmet in their car it would save you money too eh?

lazs

I am kind of sick of that stupid comparison, as it is ridiculous in the context.  Want to actually show me the risks of head injury for the average motorcycle rider versus the risk of serious burns for the average car driver?

With even half an effort you can figure out that the risk of head injury is great for the average biker without a helmet, it's extremely rare to be seriously burned in a car accident.  Extremely rare.

Why don't you compare helmet use to seatbelt use, a better comparison?  Oh, thats right, with pretty equal chance of the seatbelt actually making a differance in a vehicle accident as a helmet in a bike crash, it makes too much sense to compare, especially since SEAT BELT LAW is pretty much the accepted norm and required by law everywhere.

But, where is your protesting your right to drive unbelted?  Where is your right to slam your head into a window post, or through the windshield?   You really should fight to regain your right to a crushed chest on a steering wheel.  And far be it from me to think you should be prevented against your will from destroying your knees on the lower dashboard.

I am still waiting to see who wants to accept automatic euthanasia versus expensive medical care if they ride a motorcycle without a helmet.  Anyone signing that pledge, and having it on their drivers license, let your hair flow in the wind.  

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Dago
I am kind of sick of that stupid comparison, as it is ridiculous in the context.  Want to actually show me the risks of head injury for the average motorcycle rider versus the risk of serious burns for the average car driver?

With even half an effort you can figure out that the risk of head injury is great for the average biker without a helmet, it's extremely rare to be seriously burned in a car accident.  Extremely rare.

Why don't you compare helmet use to seatbelt use, a better comparison?  Oh, thats right, with pretty equal chance of the seatbelt actually making a differance in a vehicle accident as a helmet in a bike crash, it makes too much sense to compare, especially since SEAT BELT LAW is pretty much the accepted norm and required by law everywhere.

But, where is your protesting your right to drive unbelted?  Where is your right to slam your head into a window post, or through the windshield?   You really should fight to regain your right to a crushed chest on a steering wheel.  And far be it from me to think you should be prevented against your will from destroying your knees on the lower dashboard.

I am still waiting to see who wants to accept automatic euthanasia versus expensive medical care if they ride a motorcycle without a helmet.  Anyone signing that pledge, and having it on their drivers license, let your hair flow in the wind.  

Dago...did you read ANYthing I just posted?

[Dago]

Originally posted by bj229r
Dago...did you read ANYthing I just posted?

yup, read it all.  Sorry if I dont believe everything someone posts.

I believe that motorcycle deaths do increase when helmet laws are rescinded.  Thanks for that.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Dago
yup, read it all.  Sorry if I dont believe everything someone posts.

I believe that motorcycle deaths do increase when helmet laws are rescinded.  Thanks for that.

Well...you're right..they went DOWN:aok

[lazs2]

yep dago... no need to read any facts about gun ownership either... the people who want em banned KNOW the truth that they are dangerous and cause 15,000 unneeded deaths and billions a year in medical costs for all of us... no need to look at the facts and...  as you say... freedom of choice does not allow you to cost someone something.

mav... I get what you are saying.   I was just take back by your "cost" comment.  I am sorry but I still don't understand it or... what you meant.

In my opinion the feds acted illegaly in the helmet and seatbelt laws.  They threatened to withold the states monies if these laws were not passed.  This is abhorent to me.

And yes.. I do have the choice to either exercise choice or go to jail.   I can be thrown in jail for my own safety....  does that not seem odd to anyone?

They will throw me in prison to protect me from the on in a hundred thousand chance that a seatbelt or helmet will allow me to survive a wreck that I would not have otherwise survived?   What are the chances of me being harmed in prison?

What is the harm done by hiring more and more police to enforce these laws?   What is the harm done to a person who simply loses his licence over not wearing a seatbelt or helmet?   All those are tangible and absolute harms caused not by anything real.... but by a police state.

And for what?  did anyone see a drop in either their medical or their vehicle insurance?  

You are duped because you deserve to be duped.

lazs

[lazs2]

Oh... I am not against the cops..  the cops are doing their job and... for the most part.. they are better guys than the average person I run into.

I got out of a seatbelt ticket the other day.

The cop asked me why I would do something so crazy as to drive a two ton car without bolting myself to the seat.

I said that.... "Oh.. I don't know... At my age... every once in a while.... I get all nostalgic for when this was a free country."

He laughed and said...  "Haven't heard that one.   Going to let you go with a warning.  buckle up in the future."   I even think he said "have a nice day"

for those who feel my evil habits are making your life a financial hell...  I am one of the few guys in the neighborhood who isn't out on some kind of dissability that still allows them to build fences and do yard work.

I have my own medical insurance and I don't drink or smoke or even eat fast food.   In my 50's... I am over 6' tall and weigh 185    I exercise and keep busy.  I don't do drugs or skydive or climb mountains.   I don't fly airplanes or ultralights anymore.

Most of you guys do things that are guarenteed to cost me a lot more money than any lack of my wearing a seatbelt or helmet will ever cost you.

I didn't do it for the first 50 years of my life and I never was inured where a helmet or seatbelt would have made a damn bit of difference.   I have seen a lot more people cost me money because of habits that most of you have.

yet.... I still believe that if you want to climb rocks or be a fatso or drink yourself or drug yourself to death... that is none of my business and I have no right to even vote on it.

lazs

[Nifty]

Originally posted by Jackal1
License? You got to be pooping me.
Like I said ......... a trained monkey can pass a licensing exam in most states.
The monkey would still have to pay for the exam though and more than likely he could drive better than the majority on the road today.
I`d much rather about 75% of the morons behind the wheel nowadays be able to drive....period. I think common sense should be mandatory.
Only thing the license is, is a sham. A money maker.....................for nothing.
Of course a drivers license is a neat way to keep tabs on everyone that has one.
Traffic laws? Give me a break.
Insurance? Auto insurance is possibly the biggest scam ever legalized.
Vehicle registration? Oh yea. I think it`s just peachy to pay for registering an auto in order for it to be allowed to travel on a Federal, state or county road.......
.........that we have already paid for and continue to pay for their upkeep. Just peachy.  

In the case you are not trolling...

The exam is easy...  but, it's necessary to ensure that people driving at least know the laws of driving. If we didn't have licenses, someone could legally get behind the wheel of a vehicle that had never driven before. I don't want this, do you? I agree that it is a money making endeavor, but to call it a sham is a bit far fetched.

Traffic laws, give you a break?  What are you talking about? Which laws you want to do away with? Speeding? Obeying traffic lights and signs?

Car insurance is like all insurance. It's a scam until you NEED it. Someone else said "why do we need uninsured motorist if everyone is required to have it." Umm, people break laws all the time, and that includes not having car insurance. My car was crushed by a guy in a van (I wasn't hurt, fortunately.) The guy's insurance was well expired. Thankfully, I had uninsured coverage, so when my car was totaled, I got a check for $12k. Also, that coverage dealt with some idiot who had issues parking their vehicle next to mine. I come back to my car, and both driver side doors were scraped and dented. I've gotten more out of my car insurance than I've ever put it, and I haven't once caused an accident.

Vehicle registration is necessary too. Of course, unless you don't want the police to tell one red car from another red car.  "Did you get the plate number of the car in the robbery?" "The what?"

[Dago]

Originally posted by bj229r
Well...you're right..they went DOWN:aok

Not according to this source:

 Helmet Laws - A Review

5. How do helmet laws affect motorcyclist deaths and injuries? In states that either reinstated or enacted universal motorcycle helmet laws, helmet use increased dramatically, and motorcyclist deaths and injuries decreased. In states that repealed or weakened their universal helmet laws, helmet use declined sharply, and motorcyclist deaths and injuries rose.

    *  California's helmet use law covering all riders took effect on January 1, 1992. Helmet use jumped to 99 percent from about 50 percent before the law.10 During the same period, the number of motorcyclist fatalities in California decreased 37 percent to 327 in 1992 from 523 in 1991.11
    * Nebraska reinstated a helmet law on January 1, 1989 after repealing an earlier law in 1977. The state then saw a 22 percent reduction in motorcyclist serious head injuries.12
    * From 1968 to 1977, Texas had a universal helmet use law estimated to have saved 650 lives, but the law was amended in 1977 to apply only to riders younger than 18. The weakened law coincided with a 35 percent increase in motorcyclist fatalities. Texas reinstated its helmet law for all motorcyclists in September 1989. The month before the law took effect, the helmet use rate was 41 percent. The rate jumped to 90 percent during the first month of the law and had risen to 98 percent by June 1990.13 Serious injury crashes per registered motorcycle decreased 11 percent.14 But in September 1997, Texas again weakened its helmet law, requiring helmets only for riders younger than 21. Helmet use in Texas dropped to 66 percent by May 1998, and operator fatalities increased 31 percent in the first full year following the repeal.15
    * In 2000, Florida's universal helmet law was weakened to exempt riders 21 and older who have at least $10,000 of medical insurance coverage. An Institute study found that the motorcyclist death rate in Florida increased by about 25 percent, after the state weakened its helmet law. The death rate rose from 31 fatalities per 1,000 crash involvements before the law change (1998-99) to 39 fatalities after (2001-2002). An estimated 117 deaths could have been prevented during 2001-02 if the law had not been changed.16 An evaluation of the Florida law change by NHTSA found a similar effect; motorcyclist deaths per 10,000 motorcycle registrations increased 21 percent during the two years after the law was changed compared with the two years before.7

And there in lies the rub.  You can with hardly any research find someone who's research and statistics prove the point you want to prove.

If anyone actually believes that rescinding helmets laws results in reduced fatalities, then I can only state that they are an idiot.  

Whether the right to decide should be left to the rider, I see the arguement, but I also see the cost to others from a persons poor choice.  The rider doesnt care about the burden they will place on others if they suffer serious head injury.  That is selfish, no matter how you try and spin it.

[bj229r]

If anyone actually believes that rescinding helmets laws results in reduced fatalities, then I can only state that they are an idiot.

None of the stats cited took into account the total number of riders going up or down during the time span---it said Fla went up 25%, yet it conveneiently ignores that motorcycle regtrations more than doubled from 199 to 2004.

That being said, it's obviously a given that it is safer to wear a helmet than not, but taking that tact, I don't want to see a mandatory helmet law in ANY state that lets fat slobs go into McDonalds. (OR buffets..HOW many fat slobs do you see at buffets?)  Health insurance for smokers and/or fat slobs with bad hearts, diabetes and all the other things that befall such people FAR AND AWAY outstrip whatever a few extra broken noggins each year wil cause. My car insurance for my main vehicle is 550 a year...my HEALTH insurance is 250 a MONTH, and that doesnt include the endless deductables, made ever higher by indigent care for illegals

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Nifty

The exam is easy...  but, it's necessary to ensure that people driving at least know the laws of driving.

LMAO
Don`t know how the driving exam is in your state, but here it goes something like this.

Do you know the difference between streets/highways and sidewalks?
Know what the big red signs are for?
Do you wish to register to vote?
Got your checkbook handy?
You did drop by your local ,friendly insurance company and get fleeced before coming here didn`t you?

Pay the man at the counter.
Laws of driving? Hilarious.

If we didn't have licenses, someone could legally get behind the wheel of a vehicle that had never driven before.

Yea, now you have to pay the man first. Doesn`t matter whether you have ever driven before or not.
If you have never driven before and you wish to get some experience under your belt before you go to get your license, you can either go pay a state approved driving school  (read that more ripoffs)..........or you can actualy learn to drive first...with no license. Al icense doesn`t mean you can drive. It means you have close to brainpower of the monkey mentioned before....and a checkbook.

I agree that it is a money making endeavor, but to call it a sham is a bit far fetched.

OK ....a ripoff then.

Traffic laws, give you a break? What are you talking about? Which laws you want to do away with? Speeding? Obeying traffic lights and signs?

Most are neither enforced nor obeyed.

Car insurance is like all insurance. It's a scam until you NEED it.

LOL
Yea right. It`s an overpriced scam. A small amount to insure the insurance......the rest to use your money for investment purposes.
But we have seen that the state and federal reuglation and guideleines will take care of us on this............right?

Someone else said "why do we need uninsured motorist if everyone is required to have it."

An insurance company rep could answer that pretty well. "So we can add that added extra charge that should be included in the premium to begin with."

Umm, people break laws all the time, and that includes not having car insurance. My car was crushed by a guy in a van (I wasn't hurt, fortunately.) The guy's insurance was well expired. Thankfully, I had uninsured coverage, so when my car was totaled, I got a check for $12k.

Good thing you gave them that extra money.
Your rates go up?
Your tooling down the road and...BAM....you blow out a tire, skid into a tree and crunch your favorite ride.
No problem. I have insurance. That`s why I have paid all those premiums.
You slide on down to your Weroblegaly Insurance Company. Snidley Whiplash, the head of claims, escorts you into his office brushing off his new 1000 buck blue suit as he goes. (The chicks down at the country club really go crazy over a sharp dressed man.)
He has your policy file in hand an offers you a seat that looks like it came from Hugh Heffner`s.

"OK I have your claim form here and your policy Mr. Sucker. (Reads poiicy name Ima Sucker) Is it OK if I call you Ima? "
"Was there a police report filed on this?"
Ima.." Yes there was"
"We will need a copy of this for our files. You can pick one up and bring it in. We would do this for you , but we are trying to keep costs to the customer down"
"OK Ima, as soon as we get this report we can get you a check cut. You didn`t get a ticket did you?"
Ima... "Yes I did. Failure to control a motor vehicle."
" Hmmmmm not good, but we will worry about this later. Right now we want to concentrate on getting your claim to you A.S.A.P. I have it all calculated and ready to put in your hand......when we get that report, of course. I will have you a check cut for 11,000 dollars.when we get that report.
Ima.."But... but....I had an 18,000 dollar car. It was brand new."
"Ima,for starters your car was 6 months old. Depreciation when you pull her off the lot. Then you had a $1000 dollar deductible policy. Remember? I saved you ten bucks by going that route. Then we figure in depreciation and calculated it on a market value price....for our area. We picked up the $300 wrecker bill that has to be deducted. You didn`t have that clause on your policy. I saved you five bucks by going that route. Then filing fees, office charges, annual Christmas party fees and $5.00 for that cup of coffee you just had. Area loss adjustments were then figured in. I shaved expenses for you on every corner to cut down customer expense. That`s our motto. We serve you for less. Have a nice day and please remember to bring your replacement auto in for inspection and insured vehicle policy changes so you will be covered under your policy for the remainder of the term."

.................
Five months later, at renewal time, Ima drives his 5 year old Yugo down to pay his new premium.
Joe Stickemup gives him the premium amount for renewal of the policy.
Ima goes into a pale shade of green and wants to know why his premium is nearly double from his original policy.
Joe expalins.." Mr. sucker you filed a claim during the last policy period. Surely you don`t expect the company to bear all of the expense for your negligence, do you? According to the police report that was filed, you received a citation. This puts you into a higher risk classification, which increases you rates. Then there were over all area loss adjustments and over all premium hikes due to losses. I did , however save you 10 bucks by going with a thousand dollar deductible coverage policy. Ima , we do everything we possibly can here to save the customer money. We are proud to have you as part of our family. You want to give me the five bucks for that cup of coffee you just had?...or I can add it to the premium."

Jesse James at least had the common decency to use a gun.

I've gotten more out of my car insurance than I've ever put it

You can get more of that for a lower price if you will locate a reputable brothel.

and I haven't once caused an accident.

Snidley would be very proud of you.

Vehicle registration is necessary too. Of course, unless you don't want the police to tell one red car from another red car. "Did you get the plate number of the car in the robbery?" "The what?"

Hint!
WineO leaning against the lamp post...." Hey there Sherlock, unless that robber was trying to get an appearance on Americas Dumbest Criminals he wouldn`t have had the proper tag on it anyway."
A one time tag should be issued, from the dealer at the time of vehicle purchase. But then, of course, they couldn`t factor in the charges that you get at regular intervals to allow you to drive your auto on roads and highways that you paid to have built and maintained. I mean , after all, it just wouldn`t work out right to charge you that amount for a little piece of pressed metal made by the boys down at the Crossbar Motel for about a buck a piece........................ ...that you, as a taxpayer are paying to feed, clothe and house.


Yep............I surely can`t see where the average citizen is being picked like the bones of a dead cow by a bunch of vultures.......which, btw, we are also paying the ridiculous salaries for so they can continue to court us further.......without even a kiss.
It`s all on the up and up.

[cpxxx]

Whatever the arguments for or against helmet laws. If I hadn't been wearing one the day my head smacked a curb. I would be dead for 15 years now.  I'd give up a little loss of freedom for 15 years of life.