Author Topic: This just in - pounding Iraq  (Read 3259 times)

Offline pzvg

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2001, 07:53:00 PM »
I'll direct an answer to Ispar, since too many others want to hold the moral high ground (you can have it, I'd rather hold the military crest) If someone locks you up? does it mean they're going to launch? Dunno, if I point a gun at your head does it mean I'm going to shoot? and from the muzzle-end perspective, do you care about morality? or the weapon pointed at you?
All semantics aside, it is accepted in every military in the world, that switching the radar from "search" to "track" ie; "locking up" IS an act of aggression.
The US decided to go for a measured response aimed at reducing the overall ADA threat, The UK concurred with that, and obviously since the UN did not release a policy statement condemning the action, (and they would have known in advance) They must have agreed with it too.
So what we do have is a few folks of an opinion that it wasn't a very nice thing to do, which brought others to disagree with them, which brought the others who feed on this stuff, and it's slowly rolling down hill from there.
That about cover it?
I don't give a rat's bellybutton who did what when, personally, all I care about history in this context is that some friends and relatives of mine who are still on active duty do not become history, 'nuff said from me.

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2001, 08:20:00 PM »
England certainly has a long and famous history.

It's amazing you ever needed anyone's help at all, isn't it? Perhaps you didn't really need ours at all. Maybe we'll see next time.  


(Oh, yeah..how long after you guys ESTABLISHED slavery here did you ban it in the home islands?  )
 http://innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html

1619
The other crucial event that would play a role in the development of America was the arrival of Africans to Jamestown. A Dutch slave trader exchanged his cargo of Africans for food in 1619...

Although the number of African American slaves grew slowly at first, by the 1680s they had become essential to the economy of Virginia. During the 17th and 18th centuries, African American slaves lived in all of England’s North American colonies. Before Great Britain prohibited its subjects from participating in the slave trade, between 600,000 and 650,000 Africans had been forcibly transported to North America.

1672
English merchants form the Royal Company to exploit the African slave trade.
(The People's Chronology 1995, 1996 by James Trager from MS Bookshelf)...

Founded in 1672, the Royal African Company was granted a similar monopoly in the slave trade. Between 1680 and 1686, the Company transported an average of 5,000 slaves a year. Between 1680 and 1688, it sponsored 249 voyages to Africa.

Still, rival English merchants were not amused. In 1698, Parliament yielded to their demands and opened the slave trade to all. With the end of the monopoly, the number of slaves transported on English ships would increase dramatically -- to an average of over 20,000 a year. By the end of the 17th century, England led the world in the trafficking of slaves."

Of course, "In England, a humanitarian milestone was reached in 1772 when the courts decided in the famous Somerset Case that a slave became free as soon as he set foot on English soil. Slavery was abolished within England, but it was still permissible within the colonies, as was the slave trade itself.

Oh..what happened here Dowding? Didn't the colonies belong to England at this time?

It also took a while to get England out of the Slave Trade didn't it?

"In 1807, Parliament finally passed a bill that made it illegal for any English vessel to take part in the slave trade.

Incidentally, that same year the United States Congress enacted a law prohibiting the importation of slaves."

Yeah, Dowding...slavery was certainly a US problem alone, wasn't it? You English can be so proud you had nothing to do with our slavery problems here...and that you abolished it in your own country (but not your colonies) so relatively early. While your merchants continued to ply the Slave Trade.

 
 

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Tac

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« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2001, 10:38:00 PM »
"In your own words "Japan, its become a US-Wannabe… And the Japanese seem to actually want that.".

That is, if you had read my post more carefully, my opinion based on what I experienced and what I discussed with people that lived before war and have seen all the changes. Matter of fact, I was VERY surprised that 90 year olds spoke good english. Cultural assimilation cant happen without a willing population, so yes, they are masters of their own destiny. It just saddens me a lot and hope it doesnt happen  

"What are you going to do? Send some Columbian troops in and MAKE them be like old feudal Japan?  Make them be like YOU want them to be. Go for it, dude! By any chance do you also have the blood of Spanish Conquistadors flowing in your veins?"

I may have spanish blood, we're all a mix down there. BTW, we dont need to send troops, we just lower the dope price and make a great social problem and later on, overthrow their government and keep them under our reign. We're testing this theory on the USA right now, so far so good....  

BTW, its Colombia, not Columbia. At least have the decency of getting the name right ignorant gringo  

"Think it over, because you folks are driving us back to it. "

Your own greed wont let you.

"What civilizations has the US "wiped out" that can even begin to compare with the 48 MILLION "New World Indians" that Spain eradicated"

You mean you have to wipe out more than one to get the prize?

SwampRat

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« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2001, 11:39:00 PM »
In response to ispar's question, No, painting an A/C does not mean they are going to shoot.  It does howerver mean they have the means and ability to shoot.  The Iraqi's know that painting allied A/C is interpreted as an act of aggresion and will be dealt with accordingly. The Iraqi's KNOW they will be fired upon when they paint allied A/C.  It's simple really, Saddam will not follow the rules as stated by the international community IN RESPONSE to his uncalled for invasion of Kuwait in 1990.  If and when he does decide to follow the rules, his people will stop dieing..at least at the hands of NATO and the U.N.  Yes, this is a very hardcore right-wing way of looking at it, but the alternative could quite possibly be the widespread use of chemical and biological agents within the MiddleEast (SW Asia) or even Nuclear weapons...just so Saddam can establish himself as Head Honcho.  

Offline Toad

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« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2001, 06:31:00 AM »
I did read your post pretty carefully.

Perhaps I misunderstood this exchange?

""Toad[/]:I forget though.. have any US foreign policy mistakes resulted in the destruction of entire civilizations like the Aztecs and the Incas? Your history books probably have more on this"

TacForgot your own history books? I dont remember all the native american tribes kindly moving aside or dying so the west could be won.While I really hate to say this, yes you have and you currently ARE Toad, to a certain degree. Ive had the pleasure of visiting Japan, its become a US-Wannabe. Its really sad, really, really sad.And the Japanese seem to actually want that.  I hope history proves me wrong. The grandparents of the family I stayed with for 3 months would tell me this, their impressions and what had been lost. It sometimes made me weep."

Is this not an attempt to portray the US as the destroyer of Japan's civilization? As you readily admit now, they are the masters of their own fate. So, I guess by your own admission, your first post was just another unwarranted attempt to sling mud at the US.

The drug problem in the US is a US problem. Without eager consumers there is no market. I don't blame ColOmbia for servicing the market. {BTW, I'll be glad to help point out your typos and spelling errors as well. For example, in your post english and spanish should be capitalized and dont and doesnt should use the apostrophe. Are we done with English/Typing class now?   }

OTOH, if you feel being the world's #1 supplier of illicit drugs is an admirable achievement....well, we all have our goals I guess.   Look what it has done for ColOmbia's society.

The US is on its way back towards isolationism. It will take time but it will happen. Greed has nothing to do with it. After all, wouldn't your ColOmbian entrepreneurs still deal with us if we brought all our troops home?  

We don't need our troops overseas to be a major factor in the world economy.

As to wiping out civilizations, let's see you do a little ledger board work Tac.

Go ahead and show everyone all the bad things the US has done in our relations with other nation states. Then post the good things we've done. I'm sure others will chime in and add some to each side. Let's look at it overall.

I'm certain if they ever hand out a prize for "destruction of civilizations" the US won't even be in the running.

Should be a great thread. Go ahead and start it.


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-20-2001).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
Dowdings kinda quiet, Toad.  

Offline Toad

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« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
Rip,

He's probably just "slaving" away at work.  

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2001, 08:18:00 AM »
No Ripsnort - it's called work + timezone lag.    

Note the smilies in my post. Of course we have nothing to be that proud about in our history. But we achieved a great deal also.

And the same goes for America/Americas.

   
Quote
"In 1807, Parliament finally passed a bill that made it illegal for any English vessel to take part in the slave trade.2

So after all that Toad, my original statement is pretty correct?    

And are you now conveniently blaming all Americas problems on your on your colonial past? Come on, Toad.    

<EDIT>

Toad you comedy genius, you.  

I'm not quite 'slaving' away - alt-tab is doing overtime at the moment  .

I also got paid today, which was nice.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-20-2001).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
No, Dowding, take a look at any of my posts. I blame our problems on US. Accountability/Responsibility.  

I wish a few other countries would do the same.  

Your original minmalist statement certainly is correct. As always, it's what you leave out that needs to be highlighted.  

Why don't you and Tac get together and make up the long list of the ways the US has abused the rest of the world and start a thread. We are, after all, the very personification of Nationalist Evil. (Soon we'll have totally DESTROYED Japan's civilization, muhahahahahha!! Well, according to Tac, anyway  )


I (and a few others, no doubt) will try to point out the very, very few things we've done to help out the rest of the world. (Which of course we only did as cover for our truly evil intentions of total world domination.  )

Should be a great opportunity for all of you to get it out of your systems!

 

BTW, anything in the news TODAY that you can blame on us?  Wouldn't want to miss anything!

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2001, 09:00:00 AM »
Minimalism rocks!  

Nice of you to jump on the "Everyone's against us - let's shut up shop" bandwagon. Perhaps, if the US is not prepared to take a little criticism, then it's time it did go and lick its wounds for awhile.

No-one is suggesting that the US is the personification of evil.

Because that would be Wales.  

goodbye!



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-20-2001).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2001, 09:34:00 AM »
Ok, there is a wide merge between "tracking" and "launch". Following the USAF logic SAM crews should launch at any hostile AC that crosses the range of fire.

Dowding, I don't want anyone to die on any side in this conflict. I only wanted to say that Iraqi Air Defence should reply to bombings in a proper way.

Does anyone know were there any launches from Iraqi side? I doubt it.

During SAM trainings here in Russia it's common to "track" or "lock" on civilian flights. And it doesn't mean that they are about to shoot Aeroflot planes.

Regarding hanging "lables" onto people who participate in this discussion - I enjoy talking to most of the people here. Cabby's "goebels-ish" remark was a great surprise for me, but sometimes I post drunk or angry and don't think before I write.

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Offline blur

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« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
Interesting article on Iraqi sanctions: http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/sanctions.htm

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2001, 01:14:00 PM »
Blur, who cares! People prefer to replace their brain with CNN reciever...   Just as it happened during the Yugoslavia bombings.

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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2001, 01:23:00 PM »
 
Quote
Boroda:but sometimes I post drunk or                    angry and don't think before I write.

Well, sounds like you might have a problem, the first step to recovery is realizing you have a problem, the second step is acting upon that realization.

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« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
The third step is reading something besides Pravda