The Confederate flag, Heratage or Hate..

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
Miko, I think you might have misunderstood my sentence there. It was disguised sarcasm, and you're quite right, the *nazi symbol* is associated with the holocaust.

The nazi symbol also is a swastika that has been used for thousands of years. The nazi salute isn't really a nazi salute, but an old Roman one.

 I am pretty sure I understood what you wanted to say correctly and I had no argument with your point of view.
 You were defending the use of swastika design rather then the use of "nazi symbol" which usurped that design, correct?
 It would have sounded more semantically accurate if you said:                         In much the same way geometric design used in the nazi symbol by itself really isn't about holocaust and opression...

 My intent was to correct your use of the words - some people may take them too literally or ignore the context. Of course people that stupid had no business being able to read, but that is public education for you...

 If you somebody write "nazi symbol" I would imagine the same geometrical design as if someone said "finnish aviation symbol".
 If someone says "roman salute" I would imagine the same gesture as in "nazi salute".
 But in both cases the context and ideologic meaning would be quite different.

 BTW, didn't roman salute involved slapping your left breast with a fist before exteding your arm?

 
 miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-22-2001).]

[TheWobble]

 

people may take them too literally or ignore the context. Of course people that stupid had no business being able to read,

LOL!  

[miko2d]

 Wobbly, my man, you crack me up!  

 Picking up on you is like taking a candy from a baby!
 Why I do that? Well, partly because I have some time to kill but primarily because I dislike inept fighters for good more then I dislike capable evil-doers.
 I think that well-meaning simple-minded ignorants cause more damage then intentional villains. Most of those (sane ones) just do their part with minimal damage and in the process illustrate how bad evil is. By contrast, damage caused by well-ment stupidity is limitless. The least it does is discredit a good cause.

 You may think I insinuate that you are stupid. I do suspect that. But I would settle on you being sloppy with your words. In which case I would suggest you read more and maybe take a class on technical writing. And of course respect your audience more - by reading their and your own posts more carefully.

ok apparently you did NOT read anything I wrote

 It was you who did not read what was written.
 Here is what StSanta said:
 In much the same way the nazi symbol really isn't about holocaust and opression...

 Here are your original words:

 Ok first off dingus its not called the "nazi symbol" it dates back long before the Nazis ever existed. Look it up..or wait you obviously wont.. here

 But it was called "nazi symbol" in the StSanta's post I referred to. So who is the dingus?
 Just because nazis adopted swastika design does not mean that everyone saying "nazi symbol" refers to the general swastika. Nor should he.

====

Just because the stupid bellybutton nazis decided to stick it on their flag ...

 From what I know about history your avarage evil nazi was much smarter than a contemporary good guy. Just look at their record - an example of ingenuity, efficiency and perseverance. Of course it did not help the good guys that Nazis were headed by such genius as A. Hitler. He was somewhat excentric, but what genius isn't, especially the evil one.

miko

[Midnight]

Let me say this again. Obviously you cared not to understand what I wrote because you are being the close-minded one. This is what I mean...

The confed flag was flown in a state of war against the United States. It was in defiance of the laws and constitution that the United States Government was enforcing.

We all know who won the war. Maybe I don't know the complete history, but when was the first time the Confed flag was flown? Was it widely used BEFORE the southern states withdrew? Did it really symbolize the southern way of life?

If it did, I guess maybe there is some history in it other than defiance and treason. If it did not exist before the Civil War, or the "War of Northern Agression" as it is sometimes referred to down there, then it's only purpose is hate and war and a representation of illeagle acts.

Show me some history of the flag before the war. Otherwise, It is a symbol of a defeted nation that no longer exists and it's display in any public place should be curbed.

OK?    

And like I said before, I really don't care one way or the other. It's not like I would campaign against it or be in some protest group about it. However, if it was a simple YES/NO answer on a voting ballot, I would vote to ban it. That's all.

BTW, Wobble. I don't really like the personal attack. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine and stated it was opinion only. I am about as open minded as you might see. But I can close things up if you want to get personal. Please don't.

------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS
 midnight@13thtas.com

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)


[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]

[Midnight]

Here is some history for you...
 http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/csa.htm

The flag used today was not used until 1863. That is 2 years into the war. It seems that in 1860, the southern states would use the "Bonnie Blue" as a symbol of independance.

So, the Confed flag was one used only by a nation that had formed itself through treason. It is a symbol of hate and illeagal acts. Nothing else.

I did a little further research and discovered that some Confederate money even had depictions of slavery on it. Go figure.
 http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/cwc/BeyondFaceValue/index.htm

There's history for you.


------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS
 midnight@13thtas.com

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)

[Midnight]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
The truth is that unlsee a organization actuall CREATES a symbo its not their symbol. The american flag is a symbol of america because it was created by americans to symbolize america. same with the flag of britian.

So this symbol was actually made by the Confederate States of America, right? YES

So this symbol was actually developed during the war, right? YES

So this symbol is supposed to mean whatever YOU[/i] want it to mean? How so?

THE FACT: The Confederate flag was designed by a country formed from states that withdrew from a union in the year 1861. By declaring war on the United States by attacking Fort Sumpter.

How can this symbol mean anything other than war and hate? It was developed by a warring nation. That nation was defeated. That nation's flag should go away from anything other than museums for historical purposes.

So don't tell me I am stating my opinion like it is fact. That is the facts.

One more thing.. The US flag is also a symbol of war and hate (back when it was made in the war against the British) But the US won the war, and history is written by the winner. That's life.

------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS
  midnight@13thtas.com  

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)

[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]

[TheWobble]

   

Picking up on you is like taking a candy from a baby!

then why does your post do nothing to rebut mine?


 

So this symbol was actually made by the Confederate States of America, right? YES

So this symbol was actually developed during the war, right? YES

So this symbol is supposed to mean whatever YOU want it to mean? How so?

Was the south fighting the North because of slavery?  NO

Was the flag made to represent slavery NO!
So how can


on BTW if you were quoting someone by saying nazi symbol PUT IT IN QUOTES, or put a QUOTE tag on it.  Putting bolds on it means emphasis not a quote..so i am to assume that since there were no quotes and there was bolds on it that YOU were saying it, and saying it with emphasis but thats just my simple mind again...

The confed flag is a SYMBOL, a symbol of what? who knows, it means different things to everybody.  just becasue some people think of slavery when they see this SYMBOL does not make it evil to everyone and that it should be banned from everyone, if you dont like it cook all of em you want, but dont try to pusy YOUR views on others by saying that just because you and yer buddies dont like it that it should be removed from socity..hell if it worked that way there wouldent be ANYTHING, every thing is offensive to someone.  I think very fat women in bikins are offensive, and probably more people thaink that than think the confed flag should be banned, yet im not on sime ignorant publicity crusade to have that banned.

The confed flag represents 'treason" to YOU, and thats just fine with me, but dont state it as fact.  it offends you and others but NOT everyone, if the confed flag was soo bad we wouldent be having this discussion.

bottom line:

Just becasue to SOME people a SYMBOL represents something that they dont like. DOES NOT justify having it totally banned from EVERYONE, including people who see it with pride for whatever reasons.  

Ya way to go, the KKK can march in public, but dont let me see a confederate flag.


EDIT: whats odd is that You want it down for a different reason than most, I think I read You but im sorry if im wrong, but you see it as a symbol of treason right??  most see it as a symbol of slavery.

I must admit YOUR reason makes MUCH more sense than the slavery "excuse",  I agree with you that to a good degree it DOES represent "treason"  but I must argue that for the most part the south had a good reason for it, just because they lost the war doesent mean they were wrong.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-22-2001).]

[Mighty1]

Midnight you had me till you got away from the facts.

Just because the south lost the war does not mean their flag is evil or a sign of predjudice it just means that it was the symbol of people who were fighting for their way of life. No more no less.

Midnight wrote:
 

So this symbol is supposed to mean whatever YOU want it to mean? How so?

Show us the facts that prove that the flag was meant to represent slavery or hate! If you can't then it means that you are trying to tell us what YOU think it should mean.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to tell you you should see the flag the way I do cause I'm not.

[TheWobble]

Its just not fair to have a symbol of any kind removed just because some people dont like it, it would be a very barren world today if it worked that way.

A symbol is called a symbol because it can mean many different things, what it means is in the eye of the beholder, and unless there is 100% agreement for what it "means" then it cant officaly mean anything, and thus should not be officaly banned....kinda like the folks that are offened by "christmas" they dont lobby for having christmas banned just becasue they dont like it...prolly because there isnt a chance in hell they could..but neve rthe less.

[TheWobble]

INTERMISSION:

I just wanted to say to EVERYBODY, on both sides of the issue at hand that I am really enjoying this argument and to thank everyone for keeping it clean.

DING!,

on with the show!

[Midnight]

Mighty1... What fact did I get away from? I see you quoted a question I posed to Wobble, but where do I stray from the facts? I never said anything about prejudice or evil. I said treason and illeagal acts.

Wobble... Maybe you can see the flag/symbol as something other than defiance of established government, as can several others in the southern states. I unfortunately cannot. I could see the "southern pride" argument if it was to use the Bonnie Blue but a symbol developed during time of war shouldn't be viewed as something to be proud of.

I do not care of the slavery issue, nor will I ever. All through history people have en-slaved others. In most cases that is no longer true.

I look at the whole thing as a matter of treason and that's it. This flag, which was created during the war is a symbol of treason. How can it mean anything else?

Is there any other government that still flies a red flag with a white circle and a black swastika in it? Not that I know of.

------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS
  midnight@13thtas.com  

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)

[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]

[TheWobble]

 

I could see the "southern pride" argument if it was to use the Bonnie Blue

 
Ya I agree, I think that one looks better anyway, but i guess ya see the one we see now so much is becasue its the most well known, why it is i dunno.

 Btw, I had no intention of going into the Treason issue of the flag, I hadent even though of it, You do provide a very good point in that area.

 

Is there any other government that still flies a red flag with a white circle and a black swastika in it? Not that I know of.

Yup, steriotyping has pretty much killed the swastika.  Its orignal good meaning will probably forever be overshadowed by what the Nazis did to it.

I wont disagree with the idea that the flag represented treason, buts hardly what it means today, many people are decendents of civil war solders and see the flag as a part of their heritage, othere just think its cool.  I dont think banning it becaue it stood for treason so long ago is really a necessary, i doubt that anyone who flies it today seeis it in that light, or at least to not a very severe degree.

What bugs me and the reason for the topic was that it is being DIRECTLY linked to slavery which is very unfair.   I hadent looked into the treason issue, so i cannot argue that with you, mostly because i dont disagree with that aspect of it.  I disagree with banning it though, its been a long time since it flew with anything but southern pride (Or redneck pride ), not treason anymore..but you still make a good case.  

I must admit that every time i see a confed flag sticker on a truck i think
"redneck"
especally when the truck has 5 foot tall tires and at least a inch of mud caked on it  , i guess they are rebelling against carwashes    

btw those sites you listed were very interesting.  its hard to find much decent Cival war stuff anymore

[NATEDOG]

The CS was just doing what the US had done only 100 years before, fighting for their land, and they way of life. the colonies didn't like the British rule, so they fought for their freedom to start a new nation. 100 years later, the southern part of that nation didn't like the way the north was running the show, so they did what they were taught to do.... fight for their beliefs. So our forefathers fought and died for what they thought was the right thing...... should we not honor them just because they lost the war? And if so, should we ban Mexican flags or Spanish flags?
I hate the fact that racist organizations have made the flag a symbol of hate, but I can't control that. My ancestors died for that flag, and I will honor them. I know not everyone shares my point of view, and I don't expect them to. So for that reason, I don't have a flag on my truck or any public display of the flag, but I should have the right to if I want to. To me it has nothing to do with hate, it my heritage.

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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-

".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "

[Midnight]

OK.. well check this out.. lots of info
 www.civilwar.com   Enjoy.

It's nice to debate. I am glad we decided not to make this ugly as so many other topics seem to get (there are a few participants that always seem to escalate more than moderate)

So be it. We see each other's points. Some are agreed, some are not. Either way it was a lively debate. I think I am done with this one.

[edit]

Originally posted by Midnight:
That flag is for rednecks and a symbol of a defeated nation

BTW. I can see where my opening statement was inflamatory. My bad. I should not have used "redneck" term, as it tends to put some right into defense mode. Not good for debating.[/edit]
------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS
  midnight@13thtas.com  

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)

[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]

[MrBill]

"Originating in the Republic of West Florida in the early 1800's, the Bonnie Blue Flag was the unofficial first flag of the Confederacy. "
           

"The single star stood only for the State/Republic that the flag flew over. Keep in mind that as the Lone Star flags began to appear in late 1860 (as depicted in the article from the Charleston Mercury), that star stood only for the State it flew in. No one was even remotely thinking of a CSA back then - only seperate Republics, which is what the first seven seceeding States declared themselves upon secession. This was to avoid violating the US Constitution's prohibition  of 'no two States shall enter into a compact with each other.'"

          The Bonnie Blue Flag

We are a band of brothers, and native to the soil,
Fighting for our Liberty with treasure, blood and toil;
And when our rights were threaten'd, the cry rose near and far,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!

                   Chorus 1
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!

As long as the union was faithful to her trust,
Like friend and like bre-the-ren, kind were we and just;
But now when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
                  Repeat Chorus 1
First, gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand;
Then came Alabama, who took her by the hand;
Next, quickly Mississippi, Georgia and Florida,
All rais'd on high the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
                  Repeat Chorus 1

Ye men of valor, gather 'round the Banner of the Right,
Texas and fair Louisiana, join us in the fight;
Davis, our loved President, and Stephens, Statesman rare,
Now rally 'round the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
                  Repeat Chorus 1

And here's to brave Virginia! the Old Dominion State
With the young Confederacy at length has link'd her fate;
Impell'd by her example, now other States prepare
To hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
                  Repeat Chorus 1

Then cheer boys, cheer now, raise the joyous shout;
For Arkansas and North Carolina now have both gone out;
And let another rousing cheer for Tennessee be giv'n,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag has grown to be Eleven
                 
                  Chorus 2
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag has gained the eleventh star!
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag has gained the eleventh star!

And here's to our Confederacy, strong we are and brave,
Like patriots of old, we'll fight our heritage to save;
And rather than submit to shame, to die we would prefer,
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
                     Repeat Chorus 2

"This was the song that the confedrates marched to first Manassas singing.  The Union marched to the tune of Dixie." (ironic?)

Isn't it odd that this country was founded by a bunch of white slave owners under the premise that all men are created equal? (Paraphrase from George Carlin)

Next they must ban the Stars and Stripes?


Why would anyone just ban a battle flag and not the national flag
Shouldn't they clean up their own house first by banning the battle flags of the 9th and 10th cavelry? <sigh>

         


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OhNooo
smile awhile

[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 02-23-2001).]