Author Topic: Improve the P-47  (Read 12645 times)

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Improve the P-47
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2006, 04:18:07 PM »
See Rules #2, #6
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 01:20:21 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Improve the P-47
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2006, 08:13:24 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 01:20:35 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Improve the P-47
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2006, 06:56:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
Anyone ELSE have an opinion?


Well, while I tend to think that US planes might have done better with cannons, it should be noted that firepower as defined by HoHun completely ignores some good qualities of the battery of the 12,7mm MGs; good ballistic characters combined with large concentration of projectiles in the target area. In addition the 12,7mm bullet could penetrate quite well even at long range.

There is a long history of shooting theories by HoHun in this board and a common feature of all these is somewhat strange way to handle probability of the hit and practically allways the way he handles issue favors certain type of weapons or weapon installations. The first time I was involved with him in this kind of discussion was about four years ago (see here). In that time he strangely assumed increasing accuracy of the shooting when the range increased. I teached him (with simple examples) some basic probability calculations. So after learning these he came up with new theory assuming that in the case of uncertainty, the hits some how concentrate evenly around the right point (?), so I had to point out that in the case of the uncertainty, the error is practically allways systemetical (ie not evenly distributed around right point). After this he has been arguing that in most cases pilots tend to shoot directly behind the target so there is very little systemetical error and accuracy is around 1mil in the best case, so I posted German data on shooting accuracy to steady target showing far worse accuracy even in the case of a good shooter. After that it has been quite quiet in that front.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Improve the P-47
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2006, 02:38:54 PM »
Hi Skuzzy,

Thanks for re-acting so quickly to my request.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Improve the P-47
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2006, 03:21:52 PM »
Hi Wolfala,

>I believe the .50 debate is 2 fold: Supply chain, as pointed out earlier. The other reason is the lack of need for buff busting. The allies weren't faced with heavy armada's of bombers which required cannon to crack. And since the AXIS never developed anything along the lines of the B-17 or B-29, or fielded them in any threatening numbers - maybe it was a moot point.

Let me point out what I consider the two vital flaws in those points:

1) Supply chain.

Switching the fighter squadrons over to cannon entirely would not even have increased the number of spare parts as you could drop the 12.7 mm MGs from the supply chain. If the bombers would have kept it, fine, but they had thousands (or ten-thousands ...) of type-specific spare parts in their supply chain anyway.

Besides, in logistics, the high-turnover, low-value articles that are continuously directed to a high number of recipients - like cannon and ammunition - are not a problem at all. What you are worried about are high-value, low-turnover parts, especially when they are mission-critical, such as radar sets for lead bombers or jamming equipment for electronic warfare.

(The Luftwaffe routinely used up to three different types of guns with non-interchangable ammunition on a single aircraft type, and I never read anything about supply difficulties until the breakdown of the transportation system in the last weeks of the war made fulfilling even the simplest demands highly difficult.)

If the US Army had been free of bias and illusions, they would have asked themselves: "Do we want to accept a weight penalty of 684 lbs in the P-47 to make the life of our bean counters a tiny little bit easier, or do we switch to cannon armament?"

2) Cannon were only necessary to combat bombers.

The German military had cannon developed as universal air combat weapons, recognizing early that MG armament would be insufficient, with their combat experience (which included a lot of MG use due to the delay in employing technology) confirming the inadequacy of machine guns. They also conducted ballistic research to find the best way to destroy stressed-skin all-metal aircraft, and arrived at the high-explosive mine shell.

What's more, the Luftwaffe fielded a 15 mm cannon that the USAAF later attempted to introduce as a replacement for the 12.7 mm HMG, and quickly and universally upgraded it to 20 mm because the weapon was much more effective firing medium-velocity cannon shells than it had been firing high-velocity projectiles of with only a light explosive or incendiary warhead.

In the development of cannon as air-to-air weapons, there was no connection to the bombing offensive against Germany at all - even the MK108 had been introduced into service before the Schweinfurt raid for the first time convinced the German leadership that bombers were indeed going to be a serious threat.

Two cannon simply were a better way of delivering the same firepower as eight heavy machine guns, regardless of the type of the aircraft they were used against.

Again, there is hardly an simpler way of improving the P-47 performance than removing 684 lbs of excess weight by changing it to a more modern armament battery. If the USAAF had realized this (they didn't even come close), better supervision of the build-up of Hispano production in the US would have made the replacement of the Browning MGs with cannon a realistic possiblity.

With regard to the impact of weight, if you look at his article on the F8F, you will see that Grumman went to incredible lengths to save just 230 lbs. (They deliberately weakened the wing to an ultimate load of just 7.5 G and allowed the wing tips to separate in a safe and controlled manner if these 7.5 Gs were exceeded.)

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199808/ai_n8826530

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Improve the P-47
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2006, 06:45:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun

Again, there is hardly an simpler way of improving the P-47 performance than removing 684 lbs of excess weight by changing it to a more modern armament battery. If the USAAF had realized this (they didn't even come close), better supervision of the build-up of Hispano production in the US would have made the replacement of the Browning MGs with cannon a realistic possiblity.


Well, after all - despite all the advantages of the cannons - the statistical reality what was seen by the USAF in the ETO, was that a plane with only 4 x 12,7mm MGs (weakest armament of the three primary USAF fighters) was the most succesfull and the most effective against the German fighters (P-51B). So in practice reducing the armament of the P-47 to the 4 x 12,7mm would have resulted about same weight saving much easier without any structural or logistical changes and apparently no practical reduction in combat performance.

In practice similar reality was seen by NAVY in the Pacific where the F6F and the FM-2 were the most succesfull planes (quantatively and relationally).

In fact vast majority of the American air to air kills of WWII were reached with armament of 4 x or 6 x 12,7mm MG. Naturally that does not tell if the P-51 or the F6F (which accounted vast majority of US kills) would have done better with cannons but it certainly tells that firepower was definately not the limiting factor of the success.

gripen

Offline AquaShrimp

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1706
Improve the P-47
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2006, 08:21:07 PM »
Only the B model P-51 had four 12.7mm machine guns.  The D had six.

A postwar study showed the way that 50 cals were effective.  A 50 cal round only downed an enemy plane when it struck flammable objects (fuel, ammunition), or critical parts (pilot, vulnerable engine components).
Source: Dirty Little Secrets of World War II.

Cannon rounds make their own explosions.

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Improve the P-47
« Reply #97 on: October 06, 2006, 11:07:36 PM »
Jimmy Thatch was actually angry when the F4F-4 was introduced with 6X.50cal instead of the F4F-3's 4X.50cal.  He thought it was unnecessary firepower and reduced performance too much.

The P-47 could have lugged the extra weight around.  When the P-47D15 was introduced with pylons, it would carry an extra 1800lbs of fuel in 2 150 gallon drops.  The extra weight was not the issue.  It was an issue of space within the airframe.  Changing the armament in the wings would not have made enough space to carry an extra 114 gallons internally.  The P-47N had redesigned, larger wings to include more fuel.

The P-47 was designed around that big turbosupercharger.  Replace that to make more room for fuel, and you've got a different airplane.  As Widewing said, when they did try that, they called it the XP-72.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 11:10:46 PM by Stoney74 »

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Improve the P-47
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2006, 11:52:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Only the B model P-51 had four 12.7mm machine guns.  The D had six.


It was very good air to air results of the P-51B which caused 8th AF to switch almost entirely to the P-51 (except the 56th FG). And many pilots rated P-51B better than the P-51D despite heavier and more reliable armament of the later (change was decided before spring 1944).

In addition there is couple examples of reducing armament of production aircraft from 6 to 4 x 12,7mm MGs like the P-40N and FM-2. Also the Russians tended to remove wing armament of the P-39 as well as Australians often reduced armament of the P-40 to 4 MGs.

I'm not ignoring the advantages of the cannons, IMHO cannon is superior, but historically in many cases 4 x 12,7mm MGs proved to be good enough armament. This is also supported by the very good combat record of the P-51B and FM-2.

gripen

Offline bj229r

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6735
Improve the P-47
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2006, 07:20:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
Jimmy Thatch was actually angry when the F4F-4 was introduced with 6X.50cal instead of the F4F-3's 4X.50cal.  He thought it was unnecessary firepower and reduced performance too much.

The P-47 could have lugged the extra weight around.  When the P-47D15 was introduced with pylons, it would carry an extra 1800lbs of fuel in 2 150 gallon drops.  The extra weight was not the issue.  It was an issue of space within the airframe.  Changing the armament in the wings would not have made enough space to carry an extra 114 gallons internally.  The P-47N had redesigned, larger wings to include more fuel.

The P-47 was designed around that big turbosupercharger.  Replace that to make more room for fuel, and you've got a different airplane.  As Widewing said, when they did try that, they called it the XP-72.


I remember reading somewhere that no matter HOW much external gas the Jug could carry, the bigger thing was the range which it could fly/fight on internal fuel--- gotta drop the tanks in a fight, which often happened otw TO the target
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Improve the P-47
« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2006, 08:34:10 AM »
Hi Bj,

>I remember reading somewhere that no matter HOW much external gas the Jug could carry, the bigger thing was the range which it could fly/fight on internal fuel--- gotta drop the tanks in a fight, which often happened otw TO the target

Good point! This tactical consideration would have made the increased internal tankage I suggested even more valuable.

684 lbs are equivalant to about 110 gallons of fuel - the F4U-1 for example had wing tanks holding 124 gallons, so that is not an unusual amount of fuel at all.

(Republic - as "Seversky" - had pioneered the devleopment of "wet" wing tanks, by the way, with their P-35 fighter.)

Applying the Breguet range equation to the P-47, an increase of internal fuel by 684 lbs leads to an increase of the range on internal fuel by 41% (from a fuel increase of just 27%).

Adding 1200 lbs of fuel in a drop tank to the above example, the Brequet range equation indicates a range incrase of 26% from a fuel incrase of 18%. (That assumes that the drop tank is kept - if you drop it when it's empty, range would increase even further as the aircraft becomes cleaner aerodynamically).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Improve the P-47
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2006, 08:58:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun

Good point! This tactical consideration would have made the increased internal tankage I suggested even more valuable.


Well, changing the weapons and increasing the internal tankage are quite separated issues. The capacity of the internal tankage of the P-47 was increased twice without any change in the weapons and the weight increase due to this was not seen as a big problem.

If the weight saving had been a real issue, the squadrons would have removed the outer MGs just like many P-40 units did in Pacific and that would have been possible without any structural changes and apparently no real effect on combat performance of the armament just like the record of the P-51B and the FM-2 shows.

AquaShrimp,
I forget to note earlier that even with the 6 x 12,7mm MGs the P-51D was still the weakest armed of the three primary USAF fighters.

gripen

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8804
Improve the P-47
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2006, 12:12:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
I remember reading somewhere that no matter HOW much external gas the Jug could carry, the bigger thing was the range which it could fly/fight on internal fuel--- gotta drop the tanks in a fight, which often happened otw TO the target


P-38s were capable of carrying 600 gallons under the wings.. These large tanks were used rarely as they limited cruise speeds and had to be dropped at low speed to avoid striking the tail. In theory, a P-38 fitted with these tanks could fly further in one direction than it had internal fuel to return. Most use of the 310 (300 usable) tanks were for ferrying fighters over great distances. With these tanks, the P-38 could fly trans-Atlantic with adequate reserve.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Improve the P-47
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2006, 08:43:03 PM »
IF my math is correct, 231 cubic inches equals 1 gallon. 684 lbs. at 6 lbs. per gallon = 114 gallons times 231 cubic inches equals 26,334 cubic inches.  That gives us 15.24 cubic feet needed to contain that 114 gallons of fuel.  So again, I'll pose the question, is there 15 cubic feet of free area within the airframe to contain the extra fuel.  Does anyone know?

Let's not forget that in the Pacific, lighter armament was a luxury resulting from the construction of Japanese aircraft.  The reason the F4F-4 was delivered with 6X.50cal was a result of British experience with the Martlet with 4X.50cal against German aircraft.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 08:50:46 PM by Stoney74 »

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Improve the P-47
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2006, 06:24:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74

Let's not forget that in the Pacific, lighter armament was a luxury resulting from the construction of Japanese aircraft.  The reason the F4F-4 was delivered with 6X.50cal was a result of British experience with the Martlet with 4X.50cal against German aircraft.


At least Eric Brown appear to have been quite happy with firepower of the Martlet I and II, he was in the No: 802 Squadron which flew convoy patrol duties from the HMS Audacity late 1941 (quoted from "Air International" magazine):

"No 802 Martlets achieved a very high success rate against the marauding Focke-Wulf Fw 200s that prowled the Atlantic seeking out convoys and either attacking them or reporting their presence to U-boat wolf pack. The Condor was heavily armed and had few blind spots, so we received quite number of hits on our fighters as we went in to the attack, but they proved well able to absorb punishment; indeed one Martlet survived a collision with an Fw 200, although the German aircraft was mortally damaged.

The weight of firepower in the Martlet was, I believe, a decisive factor in our success, and one of my lasting impressions is seeing the cockpit of a Condor virtually disintegrate under the devastating hail of lead coming from my Brownings as I made head-on attack. Perhaps this experience was what made me feel the Royal navy should have retained the American name Wildcat from the outset for this ferocious little fighter, and it seems that their Lordships at the Admiralty belatedly shared my opinion, for when the first Wildcat V was delivered to this country early in 1944, it was decided that henceforth the name Martlet would be dropped for all marks of the aircraft.
"

I'm not sure if the plane was Martlet I or II but apparently 4 or 6 x 12,7mm MGs proved to be quite effective against four engined bomber given that several Condors were claimed by No. 802 Squadron.

The Brits seem to have been going towards four cannon armament and in the case of the P-51 the cannon installation appear to originate from the British requirement; had the P-47 been built for the British spec, it would almost certainly had been with 4 x 20mm cannons. Anyway, despite apparently successfull installation of the 4 x 20mm cannon in the Mustang Ia/P-51, the production P-51B and later models used 12,7mm MGs and reached great success.

In the Finnish service 4 x 12,7mm proved to be effective against the russian types which were generally quite well protected, the exception being the Il-2 which was difficult to shoot down even with the 3 x 20mm of the G-6 with wing cannons.

The point here is that choosed weapons of the P-47 appear to have been very effective in combat so why fix something which was not broken? After all the Allies were clearly winning air war over Germany with a plane with just half or 3/4 firepower of the P-47.

The cannons would have probably been some what more effective but would it have been worth of all structural, logistical etc. changes?

gripen