Author Topic: 303's .... (Read 4223 times)

Benny Moore · « **Reply #45 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:01:33 AM »

You're completely skirting the issue about the gun cameras. You can argue paperwork until you're blue in the face, and the fact remains that the effects of cannonfire in the simulator and in the gun camera footage are as different as meat and potatoes.

Tony Williams · « **Reply #46 on:** October 20, 2006, 07:46:48 AM »

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Originally posted by HoHun
By the way, I had known about Dowding's spiritualist ideas for a while, but I was surprised when I learned that Conan-Doyle actually wrote a spiritualist propaganda piece using the characters from his "Lost World" series. Seems spiritualism it was fashionable in Britain for a while?

Yes, it was very popular among a surprising number of well-educated people, for a number of years. A fake photo of 'fairies at the bottom of a garden', taken by some young girls, was widely believed - it certainly took in A C-D.

No doubt there is some sort of correspondence between belief in the supernatural and wider social factors at the time, but I don't know what it might be!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

zorstorer · « **Reply #47 on:** October 20, 2006, 07:55:23 AM »

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Originally posted by Benny Moore
You're completely skirting the issue about the gun cameras. You can argue paperwork until you're blue in the face, and the fact remains that the effects of cannonfire in the simulator and in the gun camera footage are as different as meat and potatoes.

After watching all of these videos, I just have one question.....what happened to all those planes 1 min after the footage stops?

gripen · « **Reply #48 on:** October 20, 2006, 08:10:21 AM »

In Finland war time president Risto Ryti's wife was a spiritualist but it's unlikely that it somehow affected to the Ryti's decisions. Spiritualism was quite popular in western europe in the beginning of the last century.

gripen

gripen · « **Reply #49 on:** October 20, 2006, 08:30:17 AM »

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Originally posted by zorstorer
After watching all of these videos, I just have one question.....what happened to all those planes 1 min after the footage stops?

Some might have burned, some might have crashed and some possibly made home.

gripen

PS: 1500, do I get a cookie?

Angus · « **Reply #50 on:** October 20, 2006, 08:49:22 AM »

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Originally posted by Benny Moore
You're completely skirting the issue about the gun cameras. You can argue paperwork until you're blue in the face, and the fact remains that the effects of cannonfire in the simulator and in the gun camera footage are as different as meat and potatoes.

Did you never see gun cam footage where the aircraft blew up?
Were you looking at the reels at the IWM?
Then...there is actually a famous picture of a Hurricane, - wingless, pilot has jumped and is in the air. WINGLESS, - wing is half severed off, and the Hurricane was a rugged bird. . Killed by a 109 in the BoB.

Stoney74 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 20, 2006, 08:50:02 AM »

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Originally posted by zorstorer
After watching all of these videos, I just have one question.....what happened to all those planes 1 min after the footage stops?

The Jugs and Ponies show up and shoot down the German plane with .50 cal., and the Allied victim limps back to England.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #52 on:** October 20, 2006, 11:16:39 AM »

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Originally posted by Angus
WINGLESS, - wing is half severed off, and the Hurricane was a rugged bird.

The Hurricane was made of wood and canvas. Compared to an American heavy, it was a paper airplane. This kind of thing was quite rare, and as the dozens of clips posted within this thread show, even under several seconds of sustained cannon fire with dozens of hits.

The fact is that the damage done by a second of cannon fire with all rounds on target surpasses in the game by far the same in real life, by very many times. The same is also true, to a lesser extent, of the fifty calibers.

The amusing thing is that the very subject of this thread, the .303, is the only gun that seems to be modelled correctly. Everyone's whining that the .303's too weak and assuming that the rest of the guns are right, but it's really the other way around.

hogenbor · « **Reply #53 on:** October 20, 2006, 12:38:39 PM »

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Originally posted by Benny Moore
The Hurricane was made of wood and canvas.

Yeah right.

Angus · « **Reply #54 on:** October 20, 2006, 01:27:47 PM »

"The Hurricane was made of wood and canvas. Compared to an American heavy, it was a paper airplane. This kind of thing was quite rare, and as the dozens of clips posted within this thread show, even under several seconds of sustained cannon fire with dozens of hits."

The Swordfish was made of wood and canvas, yet a squadron of them flew through the fire from Bismarck without a loss. Similar things happened at Taranto, paper planes flying through fire.
Wood and canvas, or "paper" are better when it comes to explosive shells than a metal skin. The cannonshells often simply fly through without detonating.
In the BoB the "paper" Hurricane proved more rugged than the metal coated Spitfire.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #55 on:** October 20, 2006, 01:35:05 PM »

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Originally posted by Benny Moore

Everyone's whining that the .303's too weak and assuming that the rest of the guns are right, but it's really the other way around.

The .303s are relatively weak compared to most gun packages on other fighters and this was something that the RAF had to contend with during the BoB. That is why the first Spitfires with 20mm cannons were rushed into service but had mixed results because of constant jams and other issues with the Hispanos. What made the .303s the RAF used during the BoB relatively successful were the rounds that were used. It gave the .303 a little more punch power. If you were to read reports about engagements between Hurricanes bouncing Ju88s, you'll see that even with 8x .303s, the Hurricanes had a tough time shooting down the well armored Ju88s.

ack-ack

gripen · « **Reply #56 on:** October 20, 2006, 02:30:42 PM »

There is very little wood in the Hurricane; the main structure of the plane (mid wing and the fuselage) is steel constructed and only some fuselage forming parts are from wood. Generally the forward fuselage of the Hurricane is very strong.

gripen

Angus · « **Reply #57 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:54:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The .303s are relatively weak compared to most gun packages on other fighters and this was something that the RAF had to contend with during the BoB. That is why the first Spitfires with 20mm cannons were rushed into service but had mixed results because of constant jams and other issues with the Hispanos. What made the .303s the RAF used during the BoB relatively successful were the rounds that were used. It gave the .303 a little more punch power. If you were to read reports about engagements between Hurricanes bouncing Ju88s, you'll see that even with 8x .303s, the Hurricanes had a tough time shooting down the well armored Ju88s.

ack-ack

Yeppers,,, mostly. The .303's still killed some 1.200 LW aircraft in a couple of months.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #58 on:** October 20, 2006, 09:05:45 PM »

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Originally posted by Angus
Wood and canvas, or "paper" are better when it comes to explosive shells than a metal skin. The cannonshells often simply fly through without detonating.

Yes, I know. But either way, wood or metal, catastrophic structural failure was very rare, even in the case of sustained barrages from cannon. As I keep stating and everyone else ignores, only a tiny fraction of the kills seen on gun camera are this way. The simulator is wrong in this. In real life, an aircraft can and regularly did sustain dozens and dozens of hits from twenty millimeter cannon and keep flying.

I shouldn't be surprised, because years of posting reliable proof to simulator communities should prepare me, but I am a bit incredulous at most of the folks in this thread. Truth be known, you just don't want to lose your precious instant kills from quarter second snapshots. You don't want to know the truth, and you don't want an accurate simulation of how it really worked.

FLS · « **Reply #59 on:** October 20, 2006, 10:42:26 PM »

Truth be known, you just don't want to lose your precious instant kills from quarter second snapshots. You don't want to know the truth, and you don't want an accurate simulation of how it really worked.

The truth is that AH2 models pilot kills by blowing up the aircraft. We all know it isn't REAL.

...years of posting reliable proof to simulator communities...

It's always fun when somebody new shows up to enlighten the community.

Flight simulators are not supposed to be 100% accurate. It would be nice but it's not feasable.

After years of similar posts you might consider the possibility that tone is important.