Author Topic: 303's ....  (Read 4073 times)

Offline Charge

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303's ....
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2006, 04:55:15 AM »
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline gripen

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303's ....
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2006, 05:48:05 AM »
Thanks, some of them might be caused by collision (bomb or plane) but very dramatic pictures overall.

gripen

Offline Charge

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« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2006, 06:52:20 AM »
Exactly, we do not know what caused them. Only a picture in some context can give a clue of what caused the damage. If the bomber formation was not under attack from fighters during the raid and the writer was in the bomber in question we can be sure that the damage is caused e.g. by flak, but what flak? 88, or bigger? Some o the damages look indeed as caused by a collisions to other bombers or even with attacking fighters.

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Offline Angus

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« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2006, 07:34:18 AM »
The pictures I posted were analyzed. There were tons more, and the '88 damage was tremendous. There were some of aircraft being hit by bombs, rockets and from collisions. I just picked some that were from air to air attacks.
I've been looking for that famous picture of a Hurricane with a severed wing, but without luck, - just have it in a book. Anyone?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2006, 10:00:15 AM »
Hi Benny,

i did watch some of the guncam films and saw many before, but i have a absolut different conclusion than you.


1. I cant remember to saw a broken wing in AH by only 3 cannon impacts.

2. I dont saw a guncam film with a constand bulletstream to one section of the plane(wing or engine).

3. I mainly saw what i would call spraying and the resulting very short impact times per plane section.

4. In Ah i often get much more concentrated impacts, as result many more bullets hit one target section, than shown in any of the guncam films.

5. When my plane is slow(IAS) in AH, i get a similar unstable behaviour and the result also is pretty much similar, then i cant bring down a B17 and though i see plenty of impacts and wonder why the target dont break.

Since i know many complaints from newbes in AH, where they complain the unstable gunplattforms and very difficult to destroy targets, my conclusion is that the AH FM and world(no wind , turbolences etc) in combination with our extreme skill provide a much increased hitquote, resulting in uncommon damages. Although not many guncam fims will show such damages, storys of aces like Hartmann, Rall, Graf and Marsaille make me belive that they did happen frequently.

So my conclusion is: The missing wind/turbolences(general turbolences and specialy turbolences behind the enemy) in AH, in combination with our extreme skill provide a much higher hitquote than a real WWII pilot did archive.
Normal German fighters got a hitquote of 2-5%, while attacking strait flying bombers from the rear, while i guess we get up to 30% while this task!
Another reason for often ripped off wing is that we ingeneral dont bail when our plane got damaged badly. We fight on with burning planes, without alerons, smoking engines, missing undercarriages etc. All this damages happen pretty often to me and would cause performence related problems to be a reason for most WWII pilots to bail, not so in AH.

btw, down is down, if the plane burn or if the wing rip off dont matter much i think. Important is a credible relation between the different guns.
HT could create a different damagegraphic, where the wing would stay with a hole and the tail also would stay complete but lose all controlls, without to change the damage flightmodel, then you would be happy?? I also would like this, cause most AH planes are still able to fly without the half wing, so the graphic dont fit to the damages.

Greetings,

Knegel
« Last Edit: October 27, 2006, 10:55:11 AM by Knegel »

Offline TwinBoom

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30cal 50cal 20mm 20mm he test
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2006, 10:30:27 AM »
TBs Sounds 
39th FS "Cobra In The Clouds"NOSEART

Offline Stoney74

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Re: 30cal 50cal 20mm 20mm he test
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2006, 12:55:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TwinBoom
wing gun test



NICE!  First B-17 picture in Charge's folder labled "allamerican" is from a collision with a 109--at least that's how it was attributed in another book...

Offline Angus

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303's ....
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2006, 01:07:16 PM »
Knegel:
"Since i know many complaints from newbes in AH, where they complain the unstable gunplattforms and very difficult to destroy targets, my conclusion is that the AH FM and world(no wind , turbolences etc) in combination with our extreme skill provide a much increased hitquote, resulting in uncommon damages. Although not many guncam fims will show such damages, storys of aces like Hartmann, Rall, Graf and Marsaille make me belive that they did happen frequently. "

This I belive is very much the truth.
We have thousands of combat hours at no risk, and we fired our cyber-bullets and shells many times more than any WW2 pilot. Our gunnery is better and more concentrated, and our stable world is simpler. So, it isn't just about the impact of each projctile, - it's how many are hitting.

Sidenote: Today I emptied my load into some 3 bombers, - I destroyed one and was killed in the process. I am a rather good shot, so does that sound abnormal?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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Re: Re: 30cal 50cal 20mm 20mm he test
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2006, 01:20:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
NICE!  First B-17 picture in Charge's folder labled "allamerican" is from a collision with a 109--at least that's how it was attributed in another book...


The site is here:

"The B-17 "All American" (414th Squadron, 97BG) flown by Lieutenant Kenneth R. Bragg, its tail section almost severed by a collision with an enemy fighter, flew 90 minutes back to its home base, landed safely and broke in two after landing.
SOURCE: Flying Forts by Martin Caiden
"

Quite a miracle.

gripen

EDIT: A bit more here and here.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2006, 01:33:10 PM by gripen »

Offline Odee

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« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2006, 04:36:10 PM »
:rofl

Okay, sorry I had to do that... Now regarding this thread, and damage from collisions, 303's 50's 20mm and 30mm's, ad nauseum.

Anyone know if gun spacing is modeled?  B25's Mossies, 38's, ME-109's  and I forget which Kraut planes had their fixed forward guns in a nice compact jack-hammer arrangement, versus the 40, 47, 51, Spit, Hurri, etc having theirs set out horizontally.

The compact arnagement of guns in planes like the P-38 made it seem more lethal becasue all those bullets were hitting relatively the same part of the the target like a jackhammer.  whereas your wing mounted guns had to find the convergence sweet spot for max damage, the nose mounted guns did not.

my $0.02 worth:aok
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2006, 02:48:52 AM »
Gun spacing is modelled, or rather already existant in the game.

 Benny Moore's comments are rash and overly conclusive, and I seriously doubt the 'proof' he is talking about is anything more than just a bunch of second hand video clips which anyone can collect through a half hour of surfing on the internet.

 20mm cannons are powerful enough to bust through a vital surface and sever off a vital part, plain and simple. It's like detonating a bunch of small grenande inside a closed surface. 50 calibre weapons are also potent enough to 'saw off' a certain part with consecutive hits under ideal conditions.

 However, there is one general premise I agree with him, and that is catastrophic structural failures on a plane happens way too often, and way too easily in Aces High.

 Who knows? Perhaps HT purposely made it this way. If a plane is landed with a barrage of 50cals still it might not snap a wing, but the odds are that the internal controls and machinery inside the plane are messed up enough for the pilot to consider bailing out. Maybe HT thinks that this process can be 'skipped' - if the plane is damaged internally beyond the ability to fly, and the plane will be shot down anyway, then why not just make it so that something snaps off or blows up? That will make it easier for people to shoot down things, at a much faster rate.

 One thing is for certain.

 If HT sets his mind and decides to update the DM component of the game, it will become perhaps the largest update to the game ever, even dwarfing the change from AH1 to AH2. The entire DM section will have to be redone, with internal components of planes modelled in.

 My guess is a change this big would actually require something as big as 'AH3' to come forth to see daylight. 1C:Maddox's IL-2 had this kind of DM modelled in from day one and yet, people still complained about it. Only after tweaking the DM through numerous numbers of add-ons and patches did they finally 'complete' it, years afer the first IL-2 surfaced.

Offline Odee

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« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2006, 02:07:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Gun spacing is modelled, or rather already existant in the game.

Ahhh this is good news to see posted ;)


 
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa Benny Moore's comments are rash and overly conclusive, and I seriously doubt the 'proof' he is talking about is anything more than just a bunch of second hand video clips which anyone can collect through a half hour of surfing on the internet.

Mostly I concurr, but something HT said a couple years back comes to mind, in that what we have to remember, that each shot is actually a burst of 3 to 6 rounds.  

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa However, there is one general premise I agree with him, and that is catastrophic structural failures on a plane happens way too often, and way too easily in Aces High.


Agree totally here, with the thought that if AH2 planes were more hardy, then there may be fewer people playing due to lack of gratification in dog fights.  The game might turn into a ground war instead, and we (well most of us) wouldn't want that, now would we.

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa Who knows? Perhaps HT purposely made it this way. If a plane is landed with a barrage of 50cals still it might not snap a wing, but the odds are...

 One thing is for certain.

 If HT sets his mind and decides to update the DM component of the game, it will become perhaps the largest update to the game ever, even dwarfing the change from AH1 to AH2. The entire DM section will have to be redone, with internal components of planes modelled in.

 My guess is a change this big would actually require something as big as 'AH3' to come forth to see daylight. 1C:Maddox's IL-2 had this kind of DM modelled in from day one and yet, people still complained about it. Only after tweaking the DM through numerous numbers of add-ons and patches did they finally 'complete' it, years afer the first IL-2 surfaced.


Here again I agree totally.  It's tough to get things balanced and keep the players happy, especially in a game of this calibre.  The Devs still have to make it fun to play, and seeing a whole can of ammo pumped into a plane that refuses to go down just isn't fun for a lot of folks... (303's not withstanding)  And if, as you mentioned, it takes planes blowing up and wings falling off then who am I to disagree?
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Offline Knegel

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« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2006, 01:29:14 AM »
Hi,

i thinks its mainly a graphic mistake, not a mistake in the damagemodel!!

Many planes are still flyable with a half wing, thats rubbish of course, therefore i think the damage graphic need to get adjusted. If it would show a hole in the wing it would fit again.

I also did reread some booksand found that catastrophic structural failures did happen. Bombers did explode after a burst into the fuselage from below, wings fall off after a 109G(30mm) attack, 109´s missing the wingtip or the whole tail etc.

Of course not all is perfect and some planes are much to weak, specialy the IL-2 is very much a paperplane, but aim pretty sure the extreme hitquote, caused by our skill and missing Wind/turbolences is the main reason for easy kills.

In AH most fights find place in low/medium altitude, here the planes are mainly very stable gunplattforms, but in more high alt or slow speed the results look different.

When iam very slow and forced to spray around, like the guncam films show, the results are much more similar.

Rarely i saw a gun cam film where the pilot got a clean stable shoot for 1 sec, like it is common in AH.  A 0,5 sec burst with a FW190D9 are already 12 x 20mm impacts and very often all bullets seems to hit.

There seems to be a rather easy possibility to adjust the hitprobability of the bullets on long range. At least the .50cal and 30mm´s lost their heatseaker behaviour and the MG151/20 provide a playable hitprobability after the last update.

So what AH imho need(actually i dont see a real drastic need),  is a decreased hitprobability  on long range for all guns and a "hole in the wing graphic" as replacement for the "broken wing graphic".

Greetings,

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2006, 10:40:43 AM »
Like I suggested many times, it is not an issue solely depending on the DM alone. It is an amalgam of the entire AH system and how it handles the aerial gunnery aspect of the game. I dare say that just two simple, relatively easy changes (that do not require a major gunnery/damage modelling update)...

Quote
1) remove the distance counter and maintain only the +/- sign on the icon
2) remove the ammo counter


 ... will immediately lower the average hit probability in the game.

 The catastrohpic structural failures will still be the number one reason why planes are shot down in the game (since it involves no major modelling change). However, the difference is that this time, the average length of the window of opportunity which makes it possible to shoot down an enemy plane, will become considerably shorter than it was before.

 Since there is no distance counter, the only reference you have in judging distances will be the relative size of the target compared to your gunsight. Misjudging distances will be farely common. Better yet, the lack of an exact ammo counter compells the pilots to be much careful in shooting at a target in the first place. You have no way of knowing how much ammo you have left - thus, the only instances where you will pull the trigger is when you are absolutely sure that you are close enough to hit a target.

 ...

This, as a result, will neutralize much of the (situationally) unrealistic, relative advantages the 50cals and 20mms hold over 30cal bullets.

 This is how it works:

 With distance indicators and ammo counters, a seasoned AH P-51 pilot chasing a Spitfire can snipe him out of the sky from some 400~600 yards away. With much offline practice shooting at the bull's eye this pilot knows where to aim at such distances, since he already knows the dispersion pattern at a given distance.

 He could think to himself, "I'll try and fire about 500 rounds max, and see if it hits", and he will fire controlled bursts without the danger of wasting too many rounds at a long distanced target.

 Now, take away the distance counter and the ammo counter. How sure is P-51 this pilot now, when there is no '400' or '600' number to tell him the approximate distance? How confident is he, about how many rounds he will fire?

 The implications are clear.

 He will have no choice but to approach very close to the target (since there is no mistaking how close the enemy plane is, once you are inside about 200 yards), and he will fire only when he thinks he can absolutely land a hit. Not only does the absolute number of rounds fired decreases (thus, lowering overall hit probability), but also he will have to engage in much more close range combat than ever, since the Spitfire will react in defense, but he cannot just snipe it out of the sky at a long distance like he used to(because he cannot be sure of the distance unless very close).

 Therefore, due to reasons of safety, this P-51, now without the distance indicator and ammo counter, will have much less opportunity to shoot at a given target.

 The relative advantage 50cals and 20mms holds over 30cals, are now neutralized. It will still be much more easier to shoot down enemy planes with 50cals and 20mms, but only when he is within very close distances, just like the 30cals are required to do so. No more "snapping wings and blowing the plane up at 400 yards with 50cal/20mms, while the 30cals are required to get in really close inside 200 yards to ever be useful".

 ...


 There you have it. A much more realistic representation of aerial gunnery, by simply removing two crutches from the game.

 The question is, how many people will really like this kind of 'realistic' gunnery?

 I can hear the whines already, vets and newbies alike.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2006, 11:04:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
The question is, how many people will really like this kind of 'realistic' gunnery?

I like the idea.  People currently shoot - and get kills - at unrealistically long ranges.  Your suggestions strike me as good ones.

- oldman