Democrats win big on House. Senate... a toss-up

[storch]

a predictable endorsement.  all the sociopaths that hang around the area where I work are also pleased and expecting hand outs of one type or another in the near future.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Sixpence


Since Reagan, it has been republican administrations who have built our debt, not the democrats.

 

Both parties share power, both are responsible, both collectively fail every time. We are here with massive debt, open borders, poop poor schools, runaway spending, erosion of civil liberties, massive corruption...all happened under the noses of both parties.

Can you imagine a company that recycles the same failed ideas / employees and calls it "change"?, when people fail to do their jobs they get fired, but a political party can chronically FAIL, and why not?, they have zero worry of losing a chunk of the power, sheeple are too poop scared to step out of lock step, think for themselves and reject the same old stale preconceived ideals... the RNC and DNC have spent billions to make sure of that.

Not only do they not get fired for sucking, they get rewarded for it by people defending their team just because it doesnt stink as bad as the other team.

A handful of libertarian / Independents could not possibly do any worse than these clowns have done.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
Both parties share power, both are responsible, both collectively fail every time. We are here with massive debt, open borders, poop poor schools, runaway spending, erosion of civil liberties, massive corruption...all happened under the noses of both parties.

Can you imagine a company that recycles the same failed ideas / employees and calls it "change"?, when people fail to do their jobs they get fired, but a political party can chronically FAIL, and why not?, they have zero worry of losing a chunk of the power, sheeple are too poop scared to step out of lock step, think for themselves and reject the same old stale preconceived ideals... the RNC and DNC have spent billions to make sure of that.

Not only do they not get fired for sucking, they get rewarded for it by people defending their team just because it doesnt stink as bad as the other team.

A handful of libertarian / Independents could not possibly do any worse than these clowns have done.

That's complete nonsense x0847Marine.  

Yes, it's easy to say it's everyone's fault when there are problems, yet I don't think anyone has argued that either party is blameless; however, Americans have built the worlds greatest nation and national economy.  Along the way the American economy has driven the world economy to new heights along with it.  Not bad for a bunch of chronic failures.  

Lets not forget the Dems lost power in the 90s and now its the Republicans turn.  Who said nobody could be fired?  

Debt is only "massive" in absolute terms, not relative.  For instance we're now paying only about 7% of the GDP to national debt interest while in the 80s we were paying about 15%.  Is this supposed to be indicitive of some sort of failure?  You own a home?  Let's say you make $70,000 a year and buy a  $100,000 home.  Interest on the first year is going to be something like $10,000 or 14% of your income.  Does it suck?  Sure...but I'll bet that you'd be more than willing to spend some time convincing the bank you can afford it wouldn't you?  What do you have for that investment?  You've got a house.  

Erosion of civil liberties?  Name one single civil liberty you've lost.  You can't because that's complete and utter BS.  Massive corruption?  How has any corruption hurt you?  Seems to me that the reason you even know about corruption is because someone got caught and the "big" scandals hardly ever touch anyone but a limited few.  People are people, regardless of party.  There always has been and always will be corruption.  The important thing is they're caught and pay a price whether it be in jail or thrown out of congress.  To pretend there is some utopia with no corruption is imbecilic.

I think the only "sheeple" that is "poop scared" is you.

[bsdaddict]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Name one single civil liberty you've lost.

off the top of my head:

the last time I flew I'm sure 4 or five got stomped on.

the patriot act violates 6 or 7 ammendments

the 2nd has been steadily being eroded for a long time.

the war on drugs has been used to justify many unconstitutional policies.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by bsdaddict
off the top of my head:

the last time I flew I'm sure 4 or five got stomped on.

the patriot act violates 6 or 7 ammendments

the 2nd has been steadily being eroded for a long time.

the war on drugs has been used to justify many unconstitutional policies.

Right.  Name any rights you've lost is what I asked.  You can't name a single one but you're "sure 4 or five got stomped on."  Pretty non-specific.  If there really is this huge, insidious plot to turn the US into a gulag as so many on this BB seem to suggest don't you think there would be something just a little more substantive?

Let me say this though, I understand and agree that we must be vigiliant regarding our rights, regardless of which party is in power but to read some of the people on these boards you'd think the jackbooted thugs just dragged your poor grandmama away to the waterboard.  (BTW, I've been waterboarded...not fun...but not torture either).

[wrag]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Right.  Name any rights you've lost is what I asked.  You can't name a single one but you're "sure 4 or five got stomped on."  Pretty non-specific.  If there really is this huge, insidious plot to turn the US into a gulag as so many on this BB seem to suggest don't you think there would be something just a little more substantive?

Drug forfiture laws have been used to size property many times WITHOUT actually having to go to court.

Didn't matter that an unknowing parent had an offspring that got caught on their property or while using their property.  

Violates the 4th ...........

In several states the "shall not be infringed" part of the 2nd is also ignored.  The so called assault weapons ban, bans the very weapon anyone in the milita is required to have.  And if you're between 14 and 60 you are in the milita.

Gulag?  Hmmm..........

So much information that is avialble on the net is still being ignored by many.

There is a plan,  as to gulag well ...hmmm, but there is a plan.  The Constitution of the United States of America, and the Bill of Rights are in it's way.  Says it right in the plan.  Who wrote the plan?  Our Government IIRC.

[Mace2004]

What you mean to say wrag is that you "believe" these laws violate the Constitution.  What I would say is that there is a constant push-pull between too much and too little.  Problems arise, laws are passed to address the problem, these laws are then tested in court.  That's the way it's designed to work so, almost by definition, laws will be made that are improper or unconstitutional but that's no reason to believe in a grand strategy and plot.  As a matter of fact, you'd probably be able to find more new "rights" that have been invented by the courts than you will find actual rights being compromised.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
And you sure as hell have never stepped foot in an economics class room.

Okay, yes you can borrow your way to prosperity if you invest the money wisely and get a greater return on investment than the cost of borrowing.  But the US hasn't invested the wealth they borrowed wisely and it's debt is bad debt.

[bsdaddict]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Right.  Name any rights you've lost is what I asked.  You can't name a single one but you're "sure 4 or five got stomped on."  Pretty non-specific.  If there really is this huge, insidious plot to turn the US into a gulag as so many on this BB seem to suggest don't you think there would be something just a little more substantive?

Let me say this though, I understand and agree that we must be vigiliant regarding our rights, regardless of which party is in power but to read some of the people on these boards you'd think the jackbooted thugs just dragged your poor grandmama away to the waterboard.  (BTW, I've been waterboarded...not fun...but not torture either).

sigh...  well since you need things spelled out for you...

right to privacy
right to freedom from unwarranted searches and seizures.
right to due process
right to bear arms
right to free speech
right to travel freely

(by no means was that an exhaustive list)

and BTW, that statement about waterboarding you made is complete B.S.  I've read accounts of WW2 vets who were japanese POW's and straight from the horses mouth waterboarding was the worst thing that was done to them.  In one case I'm thinking of, it was the ONLY thing that was so horrendus that he had subconsiously repressed the memory of it until recently.  Waterboarding not torture, that's rich.

[lazs2]

all the bad debt we have has been for social programs that have made things worse..... increased poverty and out of wedlock babies for instance along with an increase in abortions.

Wars are bad but some good to the economy comes from them.. we are the biggest arms dealers in the world for instance.  It is an investment of sorts... social programs only increase dependence and is simply pouring money down a rat hole.... worse... as dependence increases so does the debt incured to pay for it.   Once a democrat passes a social program... eveyone pays for it forever in ever increasing amounts... republicans can't stop these fixed costs handed to them by democrats and socialists.

mace... yes, our second amendment rights are being squashed... all by democrats...   The interpretation of the second or any amendment should be up to the supreme court but it is too cowardly to address the issue so....  lacking any guidance the politicians interpret it to mean whatever they want.

No knock laws and such are an infringement of our freedom... roadblocks and searches of our cars under the guise of drunk driving prevention... the forcing of wearing seatbelts and helmets for our own good... forcing states to comply by not giving back any of the money they extorted from the states in the first place.

A libertarian would be either inefective or out of office... no way could he take any entitlement from anyone without being piloried by the socialists and their media hacks.

There is no solution but.... there is a way to make it worse faster... and that is to vote democrat.

lazs

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by bsdaddict
sigh...  well since you need things spelled out for you...

right to privacy
right to freedom from unwarranted searches and seizures.
right to due process
right to bear arms
right to free speech
right to travel freely

(by no means was that an exhaustive list)

and BTW, that statement about waterboarding you made is complete B.S.  I've read accounts of WW2 vets who were japanese POW's and straight from the horses mouth waterboarding was the worst thing that was done to them.  In one case I'm thinking of, it was the ONLY thing that was so horrendus that he had subconsiously repressed the memory of it until recently.  Waterboarding not torture, that's rich.

Nonsense about the waterboarding.  I've had it done to me, no second-hand knowledge here.  It's very, very unpleasant but that's it.  Nothing at all like having your arms tied behind your back and being hoisted until your shoulders dislocate.

Regarding the rights you claim to have been taken from you...I'll spell it out for you.  Name a single right YOU'VE had taken from you.  First, there is no right to privacy in the constitution (although I agree there should be).  Second, when have you been the subject of an unwarranted search or seizure?  Third, when have you been denied due process?  Fourth, where have you been denied the right to bear arms (I'll agree on this one though, there are states that have seriously infringed on this)? Fifth, where have you been denied free speach?  Sixth, where have you been denied the right to travel freely?  

Bottom line here is you, like so many others, are imagining a far greater threat than really exists.  You wouldn't believe the number of things we could do but are not allowed to do in the quest to capture/kill terrorists.  Again, first hand knowledge here.  For the most part, we're denied certain capabilities because bananas like you will go off the deep end claiming it's really aimed at you.   Trust me, you're just not that important.

[bsdaddict]

right to privacy  (last time I went to an airport, among other things)
right to freedom from unwarranted searches and seizures.  (last time I went to an airport.  who the heck knows if I've been wiretapped or if my bank records have been turned over to the FBI, or my ISP's records,  etc...)
right to due process (this was a double listing.  same as above)
right to bear arms  (the army has bigger guns than me)
right to free speech  (I HAVE personally been HERDED into a free speech zone at a protest)
right to travel freely  (airport BS)

that's what's affected me, off the top of my head.  I'm not understanding why you don't think it's a problem unless it affects me  or you personally.  Rights are rights and I have a problem with the gov't infringing upon ANYONE'S rights.

Also, ever heard of the 9th Ammendment?  "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."  

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy

"The right to privacy

The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit."

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Actually Sixpence you have a very valid point about the lard and it, more than the war, is probably why the Republicans are out on their butts.  But to address the point about the deficit, and what I think they're trying to get at is that debt is not necessarily a bad thing.  Without debt you wouldn't be able to buy a house for instance.  The point is what you use the debt for.  If you invest it in infrastructure or, in the case of the war, to ensure peace and stability then it's a good thing.  

Just such a case in point is the depression, followed by WWII (and enormous debt), followed by an era of economic expansion never seen before as the manufacturing infrastructure built with the debt and the peace that followed the successful conclusion of the war fed an enormous economic boom.  

That is as opposed to just borrowing money and handing it out, or worse, creating entitlement programs which 1) are enormously inefficient, 2) are self-sustaining, and 3) provide no positive input to the economy at all.

Well, you have a point, but at what point to you stop borrowing. I own a house, and that's good. But if I keep borrowing more before paying what I have borrowed already, I could not afford to pay my mortgage and I would default.

OK, I have my house, but it needs to be painted, so I borrow money to paint it...then I borrow to put up a fence, then I borrow for new sod for my yard, then I borrow for a pool, then I borrow to have the fence stained, then I borrow to put an addition on, then I borrow to have the basement finished, then I borrow to have a new bathroom put in, then I start cashing those checks in the mail, you know "deposit this check for an instant loan", the one with the rediculous interest rate?

Well, guess what, I am on my way to bankruptcy. So if you borrow responsibly, yes, it can work for you, but can you honestly say we have borrowed responsibly? I don't have to ask you that, you already know.

Like that tax cut check we got, it was added to our debt, it was like cashing one of those checks for loans you get in the mail, we are paying compound interest on it.

Now, is Lazs right for saying we have too many social programs? Of course he is. Is he right for saying that is the primary cause of our debt? No way in hell. Welfare is welfare, if you are paying a contractor $3000 for hammers and $20,000 for toilet bowls, that's welfare. If you are creating government jobs for people who got you elected and their friends(bigger government), that's welfare, it's a free ride. Our tax dollars get raided on a daily bases and get added to our debt.

As one religious conservative put it "they were just as bad as the democrats when they got their snout in the trough"

And it has become a cycle of spenders, throw one bum out the other spends, throw that bum out and the other bum is back spending.

If the dems do the same, I think you might actually see these 3rd(4th, 5th?) parties start to gain strength. They need to ally with the bigger parties now, but people, as shown in this last election, will do what they have to for change. And if the dems spend away, it could be used as a rallying cry for an independent party. It may not win, but it could gain enough strength to make it a legit power and bring winds of change.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by bsdaddict
right to privacy  (last time I went to an airport, among other things)
right to freedom from unwarranted searches and seizures.  (last time I went to an airport.  who the heck knows if I've been wiretapped or if my bank records have been turned over to the FBI, or my ISP's records,  etc...)
right to due process (this was a double listing.  same as above)
right to bear arms  (the army has bigger guns than me)
right to free speech  (I HAVE personally been HERDED into a free speech zone at a protest)
right to travel freely  (airport BS)

that's what's affected me, off the top of my head.  I'm not understanding why you don't think it's a problem unless it affects me  or you personally.  Rights are rights and I have a problem with the gov't infringing upon ANYONE'S rights.

Also, ever heard of the 9th Ammendment?  "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."  

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy

"The right to privacy

The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit."

There is no doubt that much of what you list is inconvienient but it has long been held that the rights in the constitution are not unlimited.  For instance, the most commonly used example is that your right to free speech does not give you the right to yell fire in a crowded theater.  

Most of your complaints are pure speculation, i.e.,your bank records, wiretaps, etc.; however, you're operating from the comfort of the very rights you claim have been compromised.  You have no real personal experience with the deprivation of rights, just some minor inconvienences and speculation.  For instance, your right to freedom from unwarranted searches has long been held to be balanced by the need to ensure the safety of the population as a whole.  It's merely inconvienient.  If you strongly object to airport searches, don't fly.  There is no one denying you permission to travel or placing restrictions on it.  It's that simple.  As a matter of fact, it's the complaining about unwarranted searches that leads to 90 year old grandmothers being searched so security can continue to operate while not being accused to targeting (i.e., profiling) certain groups so, in fact, your arguement backfires.  To follow your perceived notions of unwarranted search, no one could be searched either physically or electronically (i.e., explosive sensors, X-rays, etc.) while boarding a plane unless there is a specific search warrant from a judge for that specific individual.  I for one am not willing to accept that interpretation.  

Like I said before, there is a constant tension between too much and too little, absolutests in either direction do far more harm than good.

[bsdaddict]

You have your interpretation and I have mine.  I'm a strict constructionist, meaning I believe in the letter of the law.  This is an opposing view to the concept of a "Living Constitution" and "legislative intent", philosophies which, in my view, have been tearing the Constitution apart.  Ex: the "right to bear arms" means just what it says.  period.  any regulation of that right, limiting the arms I can bear to those of a certain type, or having to apply for a license, is an infringement.