Stick a Fork in Me!

[Maverick]

My $.04 in this discusion.

First off I am a TOTAL dweeb here. Still just learning the game. I do have some qualifications in other areas however. I do know tanks. I am a just retired Armor Officer in the Army. I studied and trained in tanks. I also trained other tankers. I want to say a couple of things about the 20mm vs tanks debate.

1. Armor is strongest on the front slope. Due to weight considerations it is weaker elsewhere, PARTICULARLY on the top. WW2 armor isn't what we have now on current battle tanks. It was often welded hardened plate and occasionally homogenous armor. The track and support wheels are much easier to take out.

2. Ammo loads in aircraft were not a single type of ammo unless ammo restrictions (like lack of) were in place. The most common American mix was ball, AP (armor piercing), incendiery and incendiery AP. This type of mix can now cause considerable damage to modern tanks even from a .50 cal. machine gun. Should you expect penetration from the front? Nope, but you can bet you can expect damage from all systems not behind the frontal armor with multiple hits from above.
Remember seeing those neat gun films of a plane straffing a destroyer and the destroyer blew up??? The destroyer had thicker armor than most tanks of the time.

3. 20mm with a mix of ammo similar to the above listing WILL get severe damage to the upper portion of a tank to include the engine compartment and fuel storage areas. Particularly if it is a Soviet style tank with external oil and fuel tanks. I know you have seen the barrels on the rear are removable (with notice for the crew) but there are other containers on the fenders that do not come off. Artilery types like to say they can kill armor with a mix of air and ground bursts of DPICM munitions. They call it shake and bake. Just one piece of burning ammo in a fuel pod can ruin your day.

4. Bomb modeling?? I agree a 500 pounder with a near miss will cause a tanker to fill his drawers. Viet Cong used to make mines out of 500 and 750 pound bombs we provided. They were duds. They were then burried and a detonator was added. A command detonation of that bomb under a tank turned it inside out. The shock and disruption of the ground can "stick" a tank so that it cannot move. If the tank is up to it's belly in soft ground the tracks lose the ability to move the vehicle. I have "sunk" a tank and helped in the recovery of my entire platoon when the hardened crust of the road gave way and the tanks sank into the soft stuff below. Bombs should cause some real problems with near misses (within 20 yards). A real close (inside of 2 to 4 yards) hit should flip the sucker over. Then drops of the bomb from less than 500 feet should also frag the plane.

5. What am I saying with all of this? Tanks can be killed by plane guns. The warthog does just fine with a 30mm gattling and that is against some of the finest armor available now, not what there was almost 60 odd years ago. It isn't just the fact that the tank is being hit by a DP (depleted uranium) round. It's that the tank is being hit by quite a BUNCH of DP rounds that does it in. Just think, a 30 ton tank was a main battle weapon then. Armor was thinner and less capable. The only thing I see needed in AH at this point is to add better anti aircraft guns on the top of the tanks. If the tank is shooting back it spoils the pilots aim.

Last comment. ALL B17's were more fragile than tanks. Buffs should expect to die from multiple cannon hits. One 20mm in the spar on a loaded buff should buckle the wing. Just play the game.

Can't we all just get along and kill each other???  

Mav

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok I have a solution.

Hitech needs to put a little text warning message in the "rear view" of our planes, just like we see on the side mirrors of our cars.

WARNING: Objects may be closer than they APPEAR!!

Rip, sorry if it sounds like I am giving you a hard time, but you have flown here long enough to know that if it says 956 on your FE, the other guy could easily have seen 600 to 700 depending on netlag. And while I think 600ish is a long range shot, its not impossible, depending on how you were flying. Only by looking at the film of the shooter can we even try to make an unbiased opinon.

Plus we all have to realize that 1 ping "sound" on our system, does NOT necessarily equal 1 hit flash on the shooters FE.

Anyways, it only takes one small bullet to end a pilots day. The Golden BB. It happens with every gunset in the game.

I would be very sad to see Rip, Weazel, and JG2 leave the game or the arena , but having a plane banned or a gunset "nuetered" is just not the answer in my opinon. Check for bugs, yes, I agree whole heartedily.

But if its correct, I don't see that big a deal with the plane the way it is.

Here is an offer. Next time you are in the arena, look me up. Fly a couple of missions with me as wingmen, and see my point of view on F4U-1Cs. I see them as excellent targets.

Other than that, all I can say is ...

Guys, take a break.   Play with the kids, take the wife to dinner, or mow the grass.  Too much exposure to anything can cause the kind of frustration I am seeing here.

But all said and done, I hope to see you all stick around.    

Verm, Sniper1 was the shooter, said I was 850 on his FE, mine showed 954. (I have  him saying this on buffer in film) So, IMO, 850 with 1 shot (he even says on film "One shot, one kill!") is just a tad bit extreme.

I'm not sure if HTC thinks  this is a reasonable distant or not, it's happened to me more than once, although I've  just recently started filming this. Pyro, HTC, do you want this film or not?  Let me know.  Again, 950 on my FE, 850 on his, he says "one shot, one kill!"....is this reasonable?  (I was not flying a zero, I was flying  a reasonably armoured FW)  Post here  if you want it.



[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-15-2000).]

[Mighty1]

Well I for 1 had a burn out about 3 months ago and almost quit but decided to take a break instead.

For me it was the same old stuff every night get in a plane and kill/be killed then do it again a dozen times more....got old.

When I came back I started to do things that were more of a challenge.

I now hardly ever fly(unless it's a 47). I spend most of my time in a tank trying to sneak into bases or hit a city/HQ.

My favorite thing to do right now is to leave from v56 to the nw and roll down the hill se of a27. You can roll all the way into the center of the base in less than a min if you don't use the brake. If you haven't done this your missing something.

I guess my point is that the game is what you make of it. Try something new..try to take an A-base by yourself in a tank without being seen...fly a 47 around...just try something off the wall just to see if you can do it.

If all else fails don't fly for a week or 2 and come back in and see how it is.


------------------
Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"

[pzvg]

Hmm having said it elsewhere, I say it here
No trees! tanks survive in 3 dimensions by denying the third dimension a target, it's called taking cover there is no cover here, there is very little hope of local air support (it's very rare) AAA vehicles mostly stay in treelines in order to ambush airdales, out in the open, you might kill one, but nothing available had guns that faced in two directions. Oh and stop already with the bleeding A10 nothing in the 1940's used depleted uranium rounds,(or 3000 of them per minute,for that matter) bombs aren't doing enough to ground targets, maybe no modelling of blast radii? Pyro? care to enlighten? (or not, it is your game after all) the major sticking point seems to be range icons and no place for ground units to hide, On the other hand, If ground units had cover, a lot of airfields would fall on a regular basis, 'cuz folks would not like flying low trying to see into treelines and getting blown away by the first fighter to happen along. Interesting contradiction, perhaps the folks who are burnt out should plan vacations, the folks who are getting ulcers should use Maalox, the ones who enjoy the sim keep enjoying, and all of us try to form more constructive ways to handle the issues we think need it
Then again, y'all can say I'm fulla crap and go on yelling like a mob, as usual

------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[fd ski]

What's with that "armored 190" stuff ?
Wasn't the "sturmblock" thing armored FROM THE FRONT ? The conopy glass and all ?

Where does the notion that 190 was a tough plane to kill comes from ?
it is only about 1000lb heavier then Spitfire and trust me - it's not due to the armor...

Anyone read the warbirds book ? Canadian ace talks about how easy it was to set 190s afire....

Countless times LW in WB argued that 3 or 4 20mm shells should rip the fighter apart. Well... do you really suggest that 190 should be able to take 20mm hits ? Come on guys !!!

When i see 190 or F4U on my 6 closing in, i know that it is time to get the hell out of his way...
He can put lot of rounds in the air and only few need to hit to ruin my day. So don't expect to outrun 20mm shells...


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:


Weaz... I know what you are talking about but there is no "realistic" flying in this or any other sim.  No one is forced on suicide missions... No one is forced on missions they don't want to go on in planes that they don't like.. No one is even forced to go on missions! Hell... No one even flys a finger four fer cripes sake.   How can you blame people for hanging out on the fringes?   Some here even want "streaks" to be rewarded making the problem even worse!!

How "realistic" is the mid (15-20K) alt lone wolf fighter hanging out on the edge of combat?   That is what allmost all score/reward weenies want to encourage.
lazs

Exactly.  We can take a plane out of a sim..but we cant take the sim out of a sim.
The Panzer truppe in normandy didnt like the air situation either...
But I agree that the HS kind of makes tanks silly in the game. I wish we could all just accept that Pyro is looking at the gunnery model and that if he can fix it he will. Give him the chance to do so.

[gospel]

Rip's comment:

"As of today, JG2 will no longer run ANY Friday night ops in Main arena. We will encourage those squads that want organized missions to set up days in Scenario arena. We're finished with Main arena."

I'd like a piece of that  !  Our squad came from the warbirds HA arena, and personally I'd prefer to fly in the SEA area.

Is there some sort of a schedule or calandar that says what is going on in the SEA, and when?  If not, maybe someone should start one.  

gospel
332nd Mongrels

[funked]

Ripsnort, you're familiar with netlag right?  "956 to be specific" could be as little as 700.  Just because you heard only one ping doesn't mean there weren't more.

[-lazs-]

JG guys leaving a sim in a huff after anouncing it on a BB because they don't like not having the most powerful gun set in the game?   Why does that sound so.... so... familiar somehow?
lazs

[Ripsnort]

Funked, again, my FE said 950, Sn1per1's FE said 850 (I have this on film)  So, I would imagine it was between 850 and 950?  Also, 1 ping, he said "1 shot, 1 dead plane", but I imagine it was actually 2 shot, possibly 4?  Dunno, going to do some long range gunnery experiments tonite in TA.

[Torque]

Funked the statman.....like those accurate quotes, especially about the F4u-4.

[Pongo]

Weaz..I just tried out my new electronic BBQ fork last night and it worked like a charm..
Hold still Ill tell ya if your done..

plug your ears guys.


nope...only rare yet..back in the MA with ya..

[Azrael]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:
JG guys leaving a sim in a huff after anouncing it on a BB because they don't like not having the most powerful gun set in the game?   Why does that sound so.... so... familiar somehow?
lazs

Sniff sniff... *puke*... this bait smells really funny.

The problem some people have with 4 HS cannons is that you point them somewhere and everything goes poof. Be it a column of tanks, be it some buffs.

If that's fine for you, gameplay wise, your opinion. But your attempts to alienate AH players from each others are obvious. Familiar sound your stitches, I think I've seen them on AGW.

And, although in a LW squad, you won't see me in LW fighters, so I don't mind. I'm a tank driver (that comes to a stop and hits .ef if he sees a F4U nowadays) and a buff driver (that is tempted to hit alt-F4 when a F4U shows up). I've been worked over in countless ways by 109 and 190 drivers, they deliver a bang if they make a smart attack and they deserve it, but HS equipped planes just hang on your 6 and deliver deadly blows while they are getting shredded. To be honest I can't remember that I ever had the chance to hit a F4U deadly.

To summarize, I'm the favorite F4U bait - I think I can consider myself lucky that european time doesn't see that much F4U's yet, either the players are smart enough to fly another plane or fair enough to choose another ride.

I've had lots of fun yet killing tanks in a tank (my anti-tank ride), and getting killed was a matter of aim, experience, position, luck, eyesight, the better man, whatever, not the biggest guns. It was fun.

Seeing a F4U just kills the fun, that's the problem. You know he points his guns at you and that's it. Yawn. At least most 109/190 pilots have to think about the loadout they take if they want to stay competive in the hostile environment - the C has it all. That problem is not related to USAAF/USN/RAF/VVS/IJN/IJA/RA/LW squads, but to buff and tank drivers.

Az

[Toad]

Been playing sims since AW DOS on GEnie.

Haven't EVER had the benefit of a development team as dedicated, experienced and responsive as HTC is in this sim.

It's still a young sim and improvements just keep rolling out of the Grapevine office. Gotta love that!

Sure, there's some things I find strange or not to my liking but I HAVE YET TO FIND ANY OTHER FLIGHT SIM OF THIS HIGH QUALITY THAT OFFERS SO MUCH "FUN" FOR SO LITTLE PRICE.

All this whining and moaning has sent Pyro back thru the programming, checking, checking and re-checking. Nothing wrong with that...just proves this game will keep getting better and better. Where else do you get this kind of tolerant, patient response?

I'm very happy and I'm staying.

HTC, just keep doing it the best you know how...cause it's damn good!

[Camel]

Well said Toad!