Author Topic: You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear  (Read 2555 times)

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« on: November 16, 2006, 11:04:08 PM »
Paraphrased from an article in the Associated Press printed in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, Nov. 18, 2006:

General John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, warned the Senate Armed Services Committee against setting a timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, rejecting the arguments of Democrats who are pressing President Bush to start pulling out.

Abizaid also urged quick action to strengthen Iraq's government, predicting that vicious sectarian violence in Baghdad would surge out of control within four to six months unless such action was taken.

"Our troop posture needs to stay where it is" and the use of military adviser teams embedded with Iraqi army and police forces needs to be expanded.  

While Democrats are pressing to begin removing American troops in the next few months, and even some Republicans have been openly critical of the war, Abizaid said it was too soon to give up on the Iraqis or to announce a timetable for starting a U.S. troop withdrawal.

"Hope is not a strategy," said Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.  She said she saw no evidence that the Iraqi government was ready to make hard decisions, including disarming or neutralizing sectarian militias.

Asked what would happen in regards to sectarian violence if the U.S. began a troop withdrawal in four to six months, Abizaid said, "I believe it would increase."  It would also undermine U.S. efforts to increase Iraqis'
confidence that their own government is capable of assuring their security, he suggested.

When pressed by Sen. Jack Reed about how much time the U.S. and Iraqi governments have to reduce the violence in Baghdad before it spirals out of control, Abizaid said, "Four to six months."

Sen. John McCain, challenged Abaizaid's analysis, stating;  "I'm of course disappointed that basically you're advocating the status quo here today, which I think the American people in the last election said that is not an acceptable condition."

Abizaid countered that he was not arguing for the status quo.  What was needed now, he stated, was to place more U.S. troops inside the Iraqi army and police units to train and advise them.  Having visited Iraq as recently as this week, he remained optimistic that the Iraqis were capable of overcoming sharp internal differences and creating conditions for stability.

"It's certainly not as bad as the situation appeared back in August."  He noted that he saw growing confidence by the Iraqis in their government, although sect-on-sect violence was still at unacceptably high levels.

Abizaid also stated that adding large numbers of U.S. troops in Iraq was not an option over the long run.

"We can put in 20,000 more Americans tomorrow and achieve a temporary effect," Abizaid said.  "But when you look at the overall American force pool that's available out there, the ability to sustain that commitment is simply not something that we have right now with the size of the Army and the Marine Corps."

Sen. Carl Leven, the next chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee said the administration must tell Iraq that U.S. troops will begin leaving in the next half-year.

"We cannot save the Iraqis from themselves.  The only way for Iraqi leaders to squarely face that reality is for President Bush to tell them that the United States will begin a phased redeployment of our forces within four to six months."

_____________________________ ________
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 11:17:35 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13918
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 11:13:14 PM »
How long do you think it will be before the helicopter evacuation of the embasy and city starts?

The election not withstanding, the reality of the situation on the ground is likely to be different than what some who voted think ought to happen. It will certainly not agree with some of the "new" electorate clammoring for a difinitive date to evacuate. I know, their minds are made up so don't confuse them with facts......

My own estimate is that the funding for Iraq will be cut no later than next November and will likely be this summer. No real basis to be able to back that up, it's just my "gut feeling" on it.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline AWMac

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9251
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 01:46:29 AM »
"You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

Seems like we're beating a dead horse here.

"Drink you Bastage, isn't this what you wanted?"

Mac

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 04:19:41 AM »
So in the end the US intervention will leave Iraq into civil war, Al-Qaeda terrorist traning ground and most likely in the end a country with a moslem extremist government applying the Sharia law. :lol

Job WELL done! :aok :rofl

You just turned Iraqi domestic trouble into a global problem.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 04:50:20 AM »
Is US politics always more about finding faults with the other team than to promote your own policies?

From what I have heard here and in the media over the last couple of elections it sounds like finding dirt and faults on the others have a high priority. Maybe its only the way it seems from the outside, or is it like that? This goes both for Dems and Repubes.

Offline FT_Animal

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 554
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 05:55:20 AM »
Anyone notice the 180 between the General and the intelligence and everyone else. I think that general is full of crapola, he's playing Bush's game. Then after all he said about how we don't need troops he says sending 20k more in would get things undercontrol.

Watch both settings,... the difference in what is said is so far apart it's sickening. If he is Rummy's information source I can see why we're in the spot we're in. The guy is a dancer.

Offline stantond

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 576
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 07:24:33 AM »
When the US finally pulls out of Iraq, and it falls into civil war, is that a case for the UN or must Iran invade the country?  I have to wonder.  I have no details on Iraq's governmental structure, and don't trust the news media to be accurate.  

Certainly, the first 'plan' (if there actually was one) didn't work.  Given Iraq's past and the fact that religion is intertwined into the goverment decisions I wonder if making three 'states' , one for each flavor of Islam in Iraq and giving each an equal voice would work?   I suppose this is the result when different groups who are equally content to blow themselves and each other up have conflict.  Can't we all just get along?

I guess the Koran doesn't help much there.  Pity, really.  Where's Muhammad when you really need him?  Maybe some of his descendents should be running the show and settle all this mess?

The original concept was a good one, and the US (with Britian and other allies) had the opportunity to help insure stability and peace in that region.  Whoops.   I have always been one to support our troops and national goals, but (politics aside) there comes a time to recognize when a bigger stick isn't going to make this work.  I never got the impression this Iraq invasion/governement change was very well thought out.  



Regards,

Malta

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 07:54:45 AM »
May aswell leave now or stay forever. When the troops leave it will be a mess until they can find some sort of stabilty from within. That stability will have to come as a natural process and they cant be told how to do it by a culture they dont know or respect.

You can only export "freedom and democracy" to nation that already has it or has had it in their very recent history.



I have always been an extremly strong supporter of the attack on Afghanistan because it was a legitemate target after 9-11. After thinking about it for a few years now im starting to think that even going there was a mistake simply because we wont win there.... ever. Has nothing to do with the losses the coalition suffers but the simple fact that Bin L. has not been found and nobody has ever successfully taken Afghanistan. Technology and cool gadgets of war means sheit there too and we should do what the russians did, only sooner than they did.

Offline FT_Animal

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 554
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 08:05:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by stantond
When the US finally pulls out of Iraq, and it falls into civil war, is that a case for the UN or must Iran invade the country?  I have to wonder.  I have no details on Iraq's governmental structure, and don't trust the news media to be accurate.  

Certainly, the first 'plan' (if there actually was one) didn't work.  Given Iraq's past and the fact that religion is intertwined into the goverment decisions I wonder if making three 'states' , one for each flavor of Islam in Iraq and giving each an equal voice would work?   I suppose this is the result when different groups who are equally content to blow themselves and each other up have conflict.  Can't we all just get along?

I guess the Koran doesn't help much there.  Pity, really.  Where's Muhammad when you really need him?  Maybe some of his descendents should be running the show and settle all this mess?

The original concept was a good one, and the US (with Britian and other allies) had the opportunity to help insure stability and peace in that region.  Whoops.   I have always been one to support our troops and national goals, but (politics aside) there comes a time to recognize when a bigger stick isn't going to make this work.  I never got the impression this Iraq invasion/governement change was very well thought out.  



Regards,

Malta


Sad part is people keep saying let the Iraqis figure it out and we pull out. There's a MAAAAAJOR flaw in that concept. Iraqis didn't start the mess, WE did. How when things get tough in our own "plans" we turn and blame them. Pulling troops out now would be a real stupid move. But then I don't know what's worse,.. Reps = Stand and lose or Dems = Cut and Run.

If there EVER was a REAL plan it would have contained 300k troops and how we would get out. The "plan" was completely non-funtional from the first minute. And this crap that we can't spare 20k more in troops out of over a million is nonsense. I think his milage is about to vary.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 08:07:46 AM »
so ripley... You are saying that muslim fundamentalist extremeists were not a problem for the world until we made it so?

That maybe we should solve the problem like your country and just sit on our butts waiting for the UN or to just get over run?

I would rather get these guys all in one spot and show em they will get beat.  you would rather pray they don't come and get you for a while yet.

good job.

lazs

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 08:09:22 AM »
But the question is: Can the US fix the mess it made if given enough time, or will the inevetable result be the same only much later and with more casualties if there is further attempt at fixing it?

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 08:10:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FT_Animal
Sad part is people keep saying let the Iraqis figure it out and we pull out. There's a MAAAAAJOR flaw in that concept. Iraqis didn't start the mess, WE did. How when things get tough in our own "plans" we turn and blame them. Pulling troops out now would be a real stupid move. But then I don't know what's worse,.. Reps = Stand and lose or Dems = Cut and Run.

If there EVER was a REAL plan it would have contained 300k troops and how we would get out. The "plan" was completely non-funtional from the first minute. And this crap that we can't spare 20k more in troops out of over a million is nonsense. I think his milage is about to vary.


Do your country a favor.  Stand by the phone and wait for the call.....you know THE call.  The one that's going to ask you to run the war because you obviously know what's goin on better than the Generals on the ground.  Or the Generals that run the deployment rotations.  Or the unit commanders who's units have allready been there 2 or 3 times wich are included in your "we can't spare 20K more in troops" quip.

The best part is you figured old Bush and rummy out, they never ever had any plan what so ever.  All the Generals said "sir we need a plan" and athe administration said "no general, there can't be a plan, play it by ear until told otherwise".

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 08:12:36 AM »
Would you say ww2 was a bigger operation?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 08:13:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
so ripley... You are saying that muslim fundamentalist extremeists were not a problem for the world until we made it so?

That maybe we should solve the problem like your country and just sit on our butts waiting for the UN or to just get over run?

I would rather get these guys all in one spot and show em they will get beat.  you would rather pray they don't come and get you for a while yet.

good job.

lazs


There is a 100% chanse that you will never get them all in one spot and beat them so that tactic is useless. A muslim fundamentalist is not a country or spot or even any sort of axis....., its individuals spread all over with severe mental problems and sick ideas. They cant be rounded up and bombed with smart weapons.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 08:18:51 AM »
nelson.. Are you saying there was no mess with the sadman?   Is your memory so short?  

He was a rein of terror for his own people... genocide.... attacking his neighbors (kuwait)  and he had been doing his best to get nukes...  He would have gotten em too I bet without intervention...

He had the fourth largest army in the world and showed that he was not afraid to use it to take away his neighbors countries.

What do you think the sadman would have done if left alone or to the care of say... norway?  or the UN?    

I believe that probly 10,000 of the worlds most hardcore muslim extremeist terrorists have been killed in iraq...  I believe that even if iraq is split into chunks it will be better for the world.  

Someone had to do something sometime soon in the region... you were unwilling and... unable to.   Thank you for your concern but....

lazs