Author Topic: You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear  (Read 2550 times)

Offline Shuckins

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You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2006, 06:01:36 AM »
So, given that attitude, one might conclude that the fate of the oppressed within a foreign country was of no concern whatsoever to the average European or many Americans.

This goes far toward explaining why the United Nations has proven unable to take action in such obvious areas of violence and racial bloodshed as one finds in Darfur.  That great international police force, which was created with such great hopes and fanfare, has degenerated into a neighborhood watch program.  The only action it ever seems to take when faced with an example of naked oppression is to wring its hands and say "Why doesn't someone do something?"

I have heard some on these bbs state that the Iraqis don't deserve our help unless they are willing to do some of the fighting themselves.  What an immensely callous and arrogant statement to make about the fate of an oppressed population.  

It's certainly easy to pontificate about someone else taking up arms and putting their lives on the line against a murderous dictatorship while we sit comfortably in our recliners thousands of miles away.  In point of fact, many of Saddam's fellow Iraqis and Kurds took up arms and fought against his rule, but without outside help their efforts were doomed.  Hundreds-of-thousands of them are buried in the deserts of Iraq.

In such a case, the invasion of Iraqi was FULLY JUSTIFIED, whether or not weapons of mass destruction were ever found or not.  The great tragedy of the Iraq war has not been the infliction of immense numbers of casualties on the U.S. forces, which are, in fact, the least of any war we have ever fought, but the undermining of the war effort by lingering and poisonous political hatreds at home...as well as a national population that no longer has the stomach for sustained conflict.  

The f e c k less foreign policy that results from such conditions and attitudes will become readily apparent to any foreign power with hostile intent toward the U.S., and will ultimately manifest itself in more examples of aggression and defiance of international laws concerning oppression and human rights.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2006, 06:36:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
So, given that attitude, one might conclude that the fate of the oppressed within a foreign country was of no concern whatsoever to the average European or many Americans.


Sadly it is only something that they can fix themselves. If the goal really was to help the poor Iraqi people then why let even worse stuff happen in other regions of the world without almost nothing beeing done.. and thats not only americas fault, but the rest of the western world. Iraq was very far down on the list when it comes to governments badness against its own people.

storch

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You're Not Telling Us What We Want to Hear
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2006, 06:46:45 AM »
what ripley, and many euros by extension are saying is that if their neighbor is beating his wife and children and killing his pets it's really none of their concern so long as no blood is spattered upon their windows.

the opinions expressed by some of you euros really lead me to conclude that you people are a sad lot at times.  how can such a large block of the world's educated population be so wrong so consistently century after century, issue after issue?  I can only scratch my head and wonder.

saddam hussein al tikrity needed to go. with this last round of elections the American public has stated it has no stomach for this fight.  that doesn't mean the fight was unreasonable to begin with it means the American public has become as effeminate as our euro cousins are and nothing more.

the most sensible thing to do in iraq is to break it into three parts.  kurdistan, sunni and shia.  that will never happen though, turkey will never allow it and the turks have been strong American allies for decades.  additionally the iraqis themselves oppose this.  they seem to prefer the centuries old cycles of the violence their bloody religion promulgates as opposed to any semblance of normalcy and domestic tranquility.  what they are accomplishing is proving to the world that mohammadism and a democratic republic cannot co-exist.

but still there is hope.  soon many more will emigrate to england and france making it the euro's problem, which is where the current problem actually began.  the middle east is a series of incongrous people mashed together by the european powers at the closing of the first world war.  what we Americans are doing there now is simply cleaning up after our indolent and irresponsible euro allies, as usual.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2006, 07:47:46 AM »
Nice try Storch :rofl


Offline Viking

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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2006, 08:15:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
what ripley, and many euros by extension are saying is that if their neighbor is beating his wife and children and killing his pets it's really none of their concern so long as no blood is spattered upon their windows.


Not true! We like to point and laugh while the neighbor beats his wife and children and kills his pets! :aok

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2006, 08:24:55 AM »
Dont forget shooting dogs is favorite sport of glorious Yurope. Only thing more fun is marry sister. :lol

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2006, 08:25:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FT_Animal
Anyone notice the 180 between the General and the intelligence and everyone else. I think that general is full of crapola, he's playing Bush's game. Then after all he said about how we don't need troops he says sending 20k more in would get things undercontrol.

Watch both settings,... the difference in what is said is so far apart it's sickening. If he is Rummy's information source I can see why we're in the spot we're in. The guy is a dancer.


The Dems and many moderates want us out NOW, McCain started his presidential run by saying we needed 20,000 MORE guys, and General Abizaid, the leader of forces there, wants neither option-- hmm...kinda sounds like.."Stay the Course":lol  

The point which the generals are making is that WE can't be the ones who defeat the insurgency, the Iraqis have to do it, and another division or 2 (Really, we don't HAVE too many more guys to send there ANYWAY-- in the 90's, HOW much of or Army was decommisioned? If we couldn't put a million guys on the ground, I don't see what a few thousand more could do, except make more targets) will distract the Iraqis from the goal at hand. They (US military leadership) envision a more advisory style for US forces like Afghanistan, with our forces sprinkled in with theirs. Sad thing is, the Iraqis aren't standing up, from all I've read

(edit: Powell said something to Bush before the war: "You break it, you bought it"--meaning whatever happens thereafter is OUR responsibility, and for that reason alone, we shouldn't leave)
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2006, 09:08:33 AM »
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In point of fact, many of Saddam's fellow Iraqis and Kurds took up arms and fought against his rule, but without outside help their efforts were doomed. Hundreds-of-thousands of them are buried in the deserts of Iraq.


You mean like the time when US led coalition gave these minorities incentive for uprisal after Gulf1 but then didn't back them up and let Saddam slaughter them under the watchful eye of coalition controllers? Oh right, must be something like that I guess.  :rolleyes:

Just face it, once Kuwait oil reserves were secured, nobody gave a rats bellybutton about Kurds.
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Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2006, 09:20:05 AM »
"while we sit comfortably in our recliners thousands of miles away".. yea, then I have to leave home and walk around outside in my neighborhood where in the past 4 months gangs have shot over a dozen people... Its the freakn wild west around here.

How many US citizens on US soil have been MURDERED or been otherwise victimized at the hands of Iraqi citizens, military or otherwise?

How much $$ were Iraqi citizens sucking out our economy while disrespecting our laws?

None and $0.00?

So here's heres a concept, protect MY fishbelly white US born tax payn'ass here in Los Angeles before going 1/2 way around the would to pick a fight with Iran's traditional enemy... then I can sit comfortably at home AND walk to corner for beer without taking my huete.

Trying to justify the epic pooch pork we have engineered is like polishing a turrd; our leaders failed to tell us accurate information, the idiots in congress compounded that FAILURE by not insuring we had all the facts before putting US troops in harms way.

Now our troops are paying the price for our "leaders", so called, screw-up and that needs to change.

Saddam knew how to keep his people in check, obviously we dont.. the touchy freely American way doesn't fly in that neighborhood, our "moral high ground" is seen as weak, they're willing to go to extremes while we follow the rules.

Maybe if we got out of the way with our "ethics" the Iraqi .gov would take the gloves off and start leaving bullet riddled bodies of insurgents laying around.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2006, 09:21:36 AM »
viking... I am against any war.   I would have been against WWII but once we are in it I want to win.    I think that at some point we would have to fight either iraq or iran...  someone would have to in any case.   Iraq attacked their neighbors... they were looking for nukes... they may or may not have had a program for more when we attacked... How would we know? they kicked out the inspectors didn't they?

I am saying that they or some other oil rich mid east country was gonna be a pain in the butt eventualy... I think that they are all pretty much interchangeable... we fight the terrorists fundamentalists no matter what country or despot we are taking on... iraq as good as any... better than most.  Fight on our terms not theirs.

The rest of the world is hiding their head in the sand or being hypocrites... they know fundamentalists are gonna be a problem but they are too selfish or scared or anti American to do anything...  call me a hypocrite?  You couldn't prove I was a hypocrite with my job and you aren't doing a veyr good job here.

Sure.. you don't like to be called weak and inefectual and hypocritical but it is fine for you to second guess and criticize the few countries that are doing the work?

Hell... looks to me like one muslim riot and you guys would all convert.   would be hard to give up the drinking but you could do it....

You have no solution... you sit on your hands or some UN committee and whine about the US because it is easy to do.

lazs

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2006, 09:28:40 AM »
Good post Marine!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2006, 09:44:34 AM »
marine... I have no problem with that.. I think that we should protect our own citizens or at least give us the ability to.  your liberal blue area constantly votes to increase the problem and disarm you.

The solution to the probhlem you talk about would cost allmost nothing... simply make it a mandatory 1 year jail sentance for hiring an illegal and start arresting and convicting employers..

put a couple dozen in prison and the flow of illegals will allmost stop....no work no draw.  those who continue to come for the crime will stick out like a sore thumb but...

Big cities, because of  the liberal metrosexuals who live in em, will allways be crapholes of crime and dirt.   You vote to make it so.  if not you then at least ten times you in your neighbors...   If you don't like the government of the locals then move.   That is what I do.   Why would you live somewhere that fostered the things you claim to be against?

lazs

Offline Stringer

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« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2006, 09:59:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
How long do you think it will be before the helicopter evacuation of the embasy and city starts?

The election not withstanding, the reality of the situation on the ground is likely to be different than what some who voted think ought to happen. It will certainly not agree with some of the "new" electorate clammoring for a difinitive date to evacuate. I know, their minds are made up so don't confuse them with facts......

My own estimate is that the funding for Iraq will be cut no later than next November and will likely be this summer. No real basis to be able to back that up, it's just my "gut feeling" on it.


Confuse who with Facts??

Rumsfield??...the person who couldn't admit the actual situation in Iraq??

Are you of the opinion that the handling of the occupation to this point has been succesful?

What is your plan for success, Mav?  More troops, less troops, pull-out, indefinite stay, at what cost in Billions do we say the investment didn't work or is working?  At some point, there has to be recognition of an ACHIEVABLE goal, because if there isn't you have meandering (the current situation).

What do you think, now, is a realistic, ACHIEVABLE goal for the US in Iraq.  Not for the Iraqi's, because deep down, none of us give two ****s for them, but for the US.  

You do realize we had Saddam's arse contained after the first gulf war, and that was better than what we have now.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2006, 10:27:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
viking... I am against any war.   I would have been against WWII but once we are in it I want to win


Naw, you weren't against this war. You were all for it back in 2003. If you think I'm calling you a liar … I guess you're right.

And here's a golden oldie from you:

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2 in March 2003
dowding.. one minor correction... iraq will not be a terrorist state once sadman and his ilk are removed.
lazs


lol I don't see how you could have been more wrong!


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Sure.. you don't like to be called weak and inefectual and hypocritical but it is fine for you to second guess and criticize the few countries that are doing the work?


Yup.


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
You couldn't prove I was a hypocrite with my job and you aren't doing a veyr good job here.


What's to prove? The hypocrisy is glaringly obvious. Lazs the outspoken anti-government … government employee. :aok


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Hell... looks to me like one muslim riot and you guys would all convert.   would be hard to give up the drinking but you could do it....


Lol no Muslim riots here Lazs. And I'll never give up drinking! :D


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
You have no solution... you sit on your hands or some UN committee and whine about the US because it is easy to do.


I have a better one … I'll sit in my sofa while the US pull out of Iraq after sacrificing so much blood and money on that futile endeavor, and I'll watch you squirm. I might even throw in an 'I told you so' or two. :)

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2006, 11:01:16 AM »
And in on a related topic I have a bottle of J. Walker black label standing next to my monitor. Its been a few months since i have had the time to enjoy a drink so its about time.

Have a nice weekend. :aok