Single 20mm cannon round takes off wing

[Ball]

theoretically if a 20mm cannon shell hit an aircraft in the wingspar whilst it was pulling a high G maneuver, then it should take the wing off?

[Apar]

Malta, I checked the films, the hurri vs Spit is not 1 single 20mm hit:



That looks like 2 full 20mm hits.

The other film I can't make out any hitsprites, dunno what's up with that.

[mussie]

Originally posted by Schatzi
I can tell you without testing that they will differ. When Schutt and I still had our comps on same desk and wed fly in same area (or against each other!), there was always a difference. Also, film isnt always what was displayed in game either (film viewer uses raw data to rebuild the film, its not a frame-by-frame movie).

Also, i didnt neccessarily mean the difference between the two FE (which are undoubtedly there). I meant on his FE, recorded hits and replayed number of hit sounds might not be the same.

Yah Schatzi... thats what i ment by
"So the Targets FE is just giving you some sound effects to let you know your stuffed...."

[SlapShot]

I watched both films ... both are believeable and acceptable.

You have got to remember that not ALL rounds fired are tracer rounds.

Hurri film ... you shot 1 or 2 20mm cannon rounds on the horizontal plane of his wing, from what we can see (who know how many non-tracer rounds hit) ... god knows what kind of damage they did ripping all the way thru the horizontal wing plane ... plus he is pulling a high-G zoom climb ... totally acceptable.

F4U film ... again ... you ALL rounds fires ARE NOT tracer rounds ... I heard at least 3 good pings on you and you presented the most favorable target in all of Aces High ... a slow, full profile target. Again ... very believable and acceptable.

Why do some constantly have to challenge the fact that they got beat and need to try and alleviative their shortcomings by trying to blame fault on some software model. We all fly the same model ... so if you lose ... well so be it ... the other guy would have suffered the same consequence had the shoe been on the other foot.

The F4U film ... you truly had the upper hand and should have killed him within a 45 seconds into the film.  Had you done a gently spiral climb, inside his climb, he would have stalled way before you which then you pop flaps and drop his arse.

[stantond]

Here is yet another film with a one ping wing removal.  I know, because I was firing the guns.  Two bursts were fired, with as momentary of a press on the trigger as I could manage.  The first few rounds fell behind the mossie. On the second, one round hit the wing, another the canopy.

Mossie Wing Shed

I tried getting some other films tonite to show this, but none were quite so clean.  No one else has ever seen this before?  Wow.


Regards,

Malta

[palef]

Originally posted by mussie


On a side note: Douglas Bader resisted the use of cannons for attacking Buff's... He said that they were not needed... (The dude was a legend IMO)

He was also repeatedly and demonstrably wrong about many issues.

Like a great many exceptional people he failed to understand that he may be able to close with a buff and destroy it with MGs, but not everyone else was as capable, talented, or skilled. Despite the loss of legs he had YEARS of flying experience over the men he was leading and often wrote off a lack of success in someone as cowardice, when the reality was that 12 hours solo in high performance fighter was really just getting to grips with the differences between a Tiger Moth and something that could flip on its back at low speeds if you used the throttle injudiciously.

Cannon rounds are a whole different ball game to solid projectile MGs. Unfortunately what you'd like to happen and what actually happens can be wildly divergent from what you'd expect from a pixellated virtual reality.

[TequilaChaser]

regardless of what any of you think, Malta is a top notch person, who has in past years proved his worth in other sims, helping others learn the games mechanics, trained them/ actually trained many  people who fly this flightsim/game, and has tested the differences in planes...........he is no different than Soda/Widewing/Badboy/Hammer/Silat/Ren/Murdr/humble/BigMax/Drano/Schatzi/Me or any other long time flying sim player


why is it that most people jump to freaking conclusions thinking someone is trying to find an excuse because he might of got beat?

I do not think this thread constituted any type of whine or excuse,  I believe the thread starter had a ligetimate question / concern and he provided film to get others views/opinions.......in which I am sure he appreciates some of the replys.....

~SALUTE~ to those who offered a non-bias opinion/explanation.........

[SkyRock]

The fact the EW has hurri2c unperked is laughable!  CHOG perked in LW but hurri2c not perked in EW???????  Every time I go in there its every third or fourth plane is hurri2c HOing away!:rolleyes:

[mussie]

Originally posted by palef
He was also repeatedly and demonstrably wrong about many issues.

Could you show me some documentation of this I would find it interesting reading...

Originally posted by palef
Like a great many exceptional people he failed to understand that he may be able to close with a buff and destroy it with MGs, but not everyone else was as capable, talented, or skilled.

I never said he was right I said he was a legend it had nothing to do with the cannons in AH... like I said SIDE NOTE

Originally posted by palef
Despite the loss of legs he had YEARS of flying experience over the men he was leading and often wrote off a lack of success in someone as cowardice

Again if you could provide me with some documentation on this I would like to read it... I never knew the man, and have only read a few things about him, but I just dont see him as being so stupid as to ignore the fact that his pilots were inexperienced. I mean it was his inexperience that cost him his legs, surely he would have lernt from that....

Originally posted by palef
Cannon rounds are a whole different ball game to solid projectile MGs. Unfortunately what you'd like to happen and what actually happens can be wildly divergent from what you'd expect from a pixellated virtual reality.

Really I thought that we had solid cannon balls in the planes just like the sailing ships of old and I did not know that the game is different from real life....
[SIZE=12]NO DUH!!!![/SIZE]


Sorry for the last comment palef...  but your response put my nose outta joint...... Never the less I would be interested in where you got you information on Bader.

Like I said The Man Was A Legend

Legend n "Any person of extraordinary accomplishment."

[Oleg]

Originally posted by stantond
The difference between 2 cannons and 6 x 50 cals is like night and day.

Well, i flew F4U-1 alot and i say 6x12 MORE powerfull then 2x20 hispano. You just need to concentrate your fire with 12mm guns, but 20mm dont require it.
And i got many snapshot kills with 12mm.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by stantond
Here is yet another film with a one ping wing removal.  I know, because I was firing the guns.  Two bursts were fired, with as momentary of a press on the trigger as I could manage.  The first few rounds fell behind the mossie. On the second, one round hit the wing, another the canopy.

Mossie Wing Shed

I tried getting some other films tonite to show this, but none were quite so clean.  No one else has ever seen this before?  Wow.


Regards,

Malta

another thing you have to remember.


what has the mossie been doing till you saw him?

did he already get 5 big holes in that wing from someone else?

did he panic when you hit him and rip the wing off through Gs?






and another thing, HT has said in the past that '1 hitsprite does not = 1 hit'


if 5 of your 20mmm rounds hit the same spot, or very close to each other you would not see more than one  hitsprite, more a slightly longer lasting single sprite.


3rd: i have often shot at people and not seen any hitsprites at all, and they die.

i put this down to graphics bugs.


i have found that at full graphics settings on the sliders, i lose hitsprites somehow.



not arguing against you, just throwing some thoughts out there #

S!

[Nomak]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
regardless of what any of you think, Malta is a top notch person, who has in past years proved his worth in other sims, helping others learn the games mechanics, trained them/ actually trained many  people who fly this flightsim/game, and has tested the differences in planes...........he is no different than Soda/Widewing/Badboy/Hammer/Silat/Ren/Murdr/humble/BigMax/Drano/Schatzi/Me or any other long time flying sim player


why is it that most people jump to freaking conclusions thinking someone is trying to find an excuse because he might of got beat?

I do not think this thread constituted any type of whine or excuse,  I believe the thread starter had a ligetimate question / concern and he provided film to get others views/opinions.......in which I am sure he appreciates some of the replys.....

~SALUTE~ to those who offered a non-bias opinion/explanation.........

Regardless of your feelings for/about him TC he is simply way off base with his post.  I dont think anyone was ruthless or brutal with him.  However, his post he been shot full of 20mm rds  

Repeatedly, in EW and MW a single 20mm cannon round takes off a wing.

He lost me right here.  Insinuating (sp?) that the damage model was somehow fubar in these 2 arenas.  Those of us who have been around for a spell know that this type of thing is very very rare and is usually the product of someone getting shot down when they think they shouldnt.

He then claims that "A change needs to be made"  Based on what?  His claim that wing damage was caused by a single 20mm?  The fact that it  was more than 1 hit was proven later in the thread by Apar.  Dont you think he should have reviewed his own film and realized it was more that one hit before comming here and insinuating the damage model was bad and that "Changes had to be made".

Does this answer you question TC?.  Shall I continue?  No need to.  I am not trying to flame him.  Again, if you come to the BB and make claimes like this ..... the waters are going to get a bit choppy.  This shouldnt be a suprise to anyone here.

Dave

[stantond]

Originally posted by stantond
Repeatedly, in EW and MW a single 20mm cannon round takes off a wing.  Spitfires, Zeros, F4F's, F4U's, all planes are vulnerable.  On the other end of the spectrum, 50 cals take a 1/2 second burst (about 20 rounds) to take off a wing.  I have plenty of film.

Either change the eny for cannon equipped planes, or lower the lethality of cannons.    Six 50's can't compare to a single cannon, and that's just wrong.

Regards,

Malta

The EW and MW arenas are where the film comes from and I see this happening.  This probably happens in the LW arenas too, but I haven't been in those arenas much.  I expect the damage model is the same in all arenas.  Taking the position that what I am really seeing is two cannon rounds and not one, is that more plausable and makes everyone more comfortable?

A valid question remains as to what is my point?  I made a 'demand' to change the eny or lower the lethality of the cannons.  How about taking that as a suggestion?

How about questioning the damage model?  Also, to show how easy it is to take out a wing with one cannon round.  That's not much firepower to knock a plane out of the sky.

Someone show me I'm wrong.  Disagreement is fine, and I can and will provide more evidence because it's not difficult to get.  I consider myself a rational person and will not stick by an absurd argument.

Speaking of TC, I appreciate his comments, and think he knows my intentions here.  I am not trying to 'stir the pot', or make some wild claim to rial people up.  However, I know some people will be upset that I am pointing out how a single 20mm (or maybe two) can drop a wing in an instant and exactly how to exploit the game by doing that.

I still hold with my original statement that one cannon round can take off a wing.  It takes a plan form or front quarter shot for one cannon round to remove the wing. From the rear, two or three are needed.  As stated above, I am always open to someone showing me how what I am seeing is not true.  




Regards,

Malta

p.s. Yes, I know a lot of crap will be thrown my way.  I have been in this postion before.  Don't question the status quo, it upsets people.

[hitech]

I am pointing out how a single 20mm (or maybe two)

I still hold with my original statement that one cannon round can take off a wing

Which is it? Might want to at least get some real facts first. And its not the status quo that people are debating with you it is your claim of facts that do not seem to be supported by your data.

HiTech

[BugsBunny]

Problem is that you don't hear every round that hits you.  The one ping you hear may be 5 or more 20s