Jeremy Clarkson-The Good The Bad The Ugly

[Viking]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Production cars are really not a good indicator.  The U.S. auto manufacturers are taxed based on thier average corporate gas mileage.  There are no European auto makers who are taxed like that.

That's interesting, I didn't know that. In my country the consumers are taxed (at purchase). How much tax is determined mostly by engine displacement, HP and CO2 emissions. There is a big increase in tax for engines above 2 liters which explains why so many Euroboxes are only 2 liter or smaller. For most of the bigger/faster cars the tax can in fact be more than what the actual car costs … which I think is completely unreasonable and insane!

To give you an example: In 1991 I bought a BMW 525Ia (which I still got). I don't know how much you guys had to pay for one, but I paid $83,000 for mine. Insanity!

I love the car though.

Edit: Mind you I was talking about Norway, not Europe. Other European countries are far more reasonable.

[moot]

Lol yes of course they are you old-timer, but they are not "streetcars". Ask the kids in town with the tricked out ricers what a "streetcar" is.

Well, honestly, can you just come out and say what you think the right definition is?
I don't know that mine is the correct one, but take what lazs is saying at face value:  cheap, street legal cars that you can build yourself, that match the performance of european cars many times their price.  How's that not a street car?
Are Caterhams not street cars?

[DiabloTX]

Muscle car = focus on horsepower.

Sports car = a balance of power & handling and not much else.

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by moot
Well, honestly, can you just come out and say what you think the right definition is?
I don't know that mine is the correct one, but take what lazs is saying at face value:  cheap, street legal cars that you can build yourself, that match the performance of european cars many times their price.  How's that not a street car?
Are Caterhams not street cars?

MY definition of a street car is one that could be driven on the street legaly. In other words, it meets all the minimum standards required to be driven on public roads. This would be opposite a track car that could only be legaly driven on a race track.

Mark

[Viking]

Originally posted by moot
Well, honestly, can you just come out and say what you think the right definition is?
I don't know that mine is the correct one, but take what lazs is saying at face value:  cheap, street legal cars that you can build yourself, that match the performance of european cars many times their price.  How's that not a street car?
Are Caterhams not street cars?

Of course all street legal cars are street cars, but in this context the street scene is not normally connected with hotrods. At least not hereabouts. It may be a misinterpretation on my part with regard for what you consider a hotrod. Do you consider all tuned cars to be hotrods?

Here are a typical magazine that covers the "street scene":




These kinds of magazines do not normally include what I consider hotrods, but that may be the problem. What exactly is the definition of a hotrod? At least the local street car club people do not call their cars hotrods, but the AmCar club people sometimes do. Perhaps that's the difference; hotrods are the American "street scene"?

[Mark Luper]

Viking,

I think it's a matter of symantics. I consider a hotrod any car that has been modified to perform much better than stock. Whether or not it's a street legal car or not doesn't matter. It has been modified in some form to make it faster, handle better, etc.

That is my interpretation of hotrod. Your mileage may vary

[moot]

That's the thing, customizing your car to your ends is not about semantics, it is about function, or fashion, or both.
"The scene" could just as well be, instead of a car show audience, just you getting a kick out of 500hp crunching off slabs of road behind you, on your favorite echoing canyon roads in the middle of nowhere.

That's not something you can do so much, in europe, with european cars, on the same budget (etc) as in the US.
From what I've seen, anyway.

[Viking]

Ok. Then it's just a matter of old slang vs. new slang for the same thing.

[Viking]

Originally posted by moot
That's not something you can do so much, in europe, with european cars, on the same budget (etc) as in the US.

In your opinion why is that?

[moot]

My impression is that it's just cheaper. Why it's cheaper, if it is, in fact, is another matter..  It will depend on at least the automotive industry as a whole.
But just considering the end product, american cars in general, they don't have the extra cost of miniaturization nor as much hand-made-quality luxury.

What I'm sure of is that it's not much of a contest between european and american performance/capita.
That's excluding the population bias of people who buy cars solely as transportation.

[DiabloTX]

Muscle car on the left, a true "hotrod" on the right:

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by DiabloTX
Muscle car on the left, a true "hotrod" on the right:

I will agree that I normaly envision a hotrod as being a '32 coupe or some such car of that era.  The term is used also for a modified car, similar to the '55 Chevy though. I suppose it would depend a lot on the crowd you run around with. Muscle car makes me think more of the '60s and early '70s big engined factory cars. Modified or not.

But that's just me

Mark

[DiabloTX]

Actually, the '55 would be considered a "street rod" rather than a hot rod.

But yeah, I more or less agree with ya Mark.

Hey, I'm with the "pony car" crowd:

[Viking]

That's a brilliant looking car Diablo! Only thing I would have changed is the wheels. I like them bigger.

Here's my old Bimmer:




Picture is two years old and the car wasn't lowered back then, and I've got new rear lights on it now (come spring I'll have to take some new pictures).

The one thing that amazes me is that with the exception of the rear wings that is the original 1991 paint. The car has never been in a garage, not even during our harsh winters.

I love that car ... but it has been expensive in speeding tickets.

[Skuzzy]

DiabloTX, and for the uninitiated, that 55 Chevy in the photo is NOT a "muscle car".

The phrase "muscle car" has its roots in the early 60's, when Pontiac dropped a big block engine into, what was then, a small car.  Thus any smallish car, with a big block motor is a "muscle car".

"Pony car" is your basic 2 door hardtop, which only has a backseat to fill the gap between the back of the front seats and the trunk.  Typically the back seat is useless, unless it can be folded down.  Horsepower is a bit irrelevant in this definition.  This phrase came about more for the need to differentiate from "sports cars".  In Europe, the auto purist would come unglued if he had to refer to a Mustang or Camaro as a "sports car".

"Hot rod", in the traditional sense, is an open wheel roadster, but has been used since those days to describe a car which has been modified from stock to include, but not neccessarily require, more horspower and/or better suspension.

All the above are designators for street cars.  None apply to race cars.  In this context, "race cars" are cars which cannot be legally driven on the street.  All the above can be legally driven on the street.


Now Diablo, the 55 Chevy in your photo, is a hot rod.  It's not a small car, scratch "muscle car".  It has a practical back seat, scratch "pony car".  It certainly is not a "sports car".  Thus, it is a "hot rod".

"Street Rod", is one of the newer terms (all things being relative) in hot rodding and it really is the same as "hot rod", but considered a sub-category of "hot rod", for those who get confused about street legal cars versus race cars, or near-race cars.