Author Topic: Bf 109 video  (Read 4832 times)

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2007, 03:16:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Meaning?


Meaning, there are more extenuating circumstance other than JUST flying the 109 making them the 3 top ACES.

But thats been gone over before so let it alone .........please.

I am not taking away from these pilots accomplishments.
But these men would have been great in ANY  airforce's fighter.



Bronk
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 03:19:14 PM by Bronk »
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2007, 04:13:11 PM »
Yes, lets leave that one alone. My point however: the 109 must have been a competitive fighter throughout the war for these pilots to have achieved all those victories. Hartmann and co. would not have made it (or even survived the war) if they were exclusively flying say ... Hurricanes.

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2007, 04:28:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Yes, lets leave that one alone. My point however: the 109 must have been a competitive fighter throughout the war for these pilots to have achieved all those victories.

Ohh I agree 100% with this. Fine pilots and a fine AC.


Hartmann and co. would not have made it (or even survived the war) if they were exclusively flying say ... Hurricanes.


See here is where you get a bit funky.
Because I believe Hartmann and co. could have survived if they had flow say......
Spitfires.



Bronk
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Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2007, 05:00:20 PM »
I also am not going to get into the argument of why German pilots had such high kill counts, but I will point out that American kill counts were low for two reasons.  First, aces were rotated back to the States after a certain amount of combat.  Second, the primary function of the United States Army Air Force was protection of bombers and destruction of German ground targets, not destruction of enemy aircraft.  Since they were not sent out constantly to hunt enemy bombers, it is only expected that they not shoot down as many.  This really has nothing to do with the skill of the pilots and even less to do with the qualities of the aircraft.

By the way, declaration of intention does not equate to a promise, and rescinding that intention upon re-evaluation does not equate to dishonesty.  Labelling said rescindment a lie, however, is slander.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 05:05:24 PM by Benny Moore »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2007, 05:12:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
See here is where you get a bit funky.
Because I believe Hartmann and co. could have survived if they had flow say......
Spitfires.


Yes, I agree 100%. For most of the war there was little to choose between the 109 and Spitfire.

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2007, 05:19:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Yes, I agree 100%. For most of the war there was little to choose between the 109 and Spitfire.




Crap me and viking agree on 2 things now.

Check the temp boys, I think hell just froze over.





:D


Bronk
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Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2007, 05:19:51 PM »
They also could have done it in Lightnings, Mustangs, or Thunderbolts.  In fact, there's a very large list of aircraft which you Axis folks consider inferior that your ubermenschen would have done quite well in.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2007, 05:23:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Crap me and viking agree on 2 things now.

Check the temp boys, I think hell just froze over.





:D


Bronk


lol ... Oh look! Flying pigs! :D

Offline humble

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This statement is the product....
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2007, 11:10:20 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:09:17 AM by Skuzzy »

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2007, 11:27:41 PM »
wow that is incredible humble!


the list at the bottom, on the 7th he shot down 4 planes in 2 mins, landed, re-upped in the afternoon and got another 3 all within about 8 mins of each other.


i bet the russians gave him hell.


what an outstanding tally, he truly was an ace.
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline 2bighorn

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« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2007, 11:39:54 PM »
Hans Joachim Marseille

Offline 1K3

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« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2007, 11:54:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Hans Joachim Marseille


Best French Ace ever!!!:aok :aok :aok

Offline Charge

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« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2007, 06:11:27 AM »
"...you Axis folks consider inferior that your ubermenschen..."

"N" word anybody?

"Hartman was famous for his "coffebreak" concept of air combat. He planned his attacks carefully and reassessed after each attack. This type of philosophy is geared to a target rich environment being approached from a position of advantage."

Actually this type of philosophy tells more about few numbers and will to survive. Of course the common two-plane flight above enemy territoy in the east saw any flight of enemies as "target rich".  The Germans did not have planes to waste at that stage of war and a careless approach at bombers could cost you e.g. a radiator and the resulting ditch on enemy territory many times cost the German pilot's life, nor was it advisable to mix it up with enemy fighters who had reinforcements handily available.

Otto Kittel for example. One careless approach and a hit from tail gunner and that was it. Ende.

Of course the length of their tours and their few numbers caused the skill to concentrate heavily on certain individuals -as did the success. So they were  hardly any "übermensch" as Bunny friendly tries tries to point out, but many times desperate men chased in a corner, and that is when such phenomenal results are made -no matter of the nationality... :rolleyes:

-C+
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 06:28:45 AM by Charge »
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2007, 07:04:02 AM »
I'd add in the "luck" factor as well, Charge, and with very high regards to it.

 For instance, I've seen an article quoting the book by Tolliver and Constable which compared Robert S. Johnson, Hartmann, and Moelders side-by-side. The authors note that it took Hartmann 194 sorties to down 28 planes, Moelders 142 sorties, but Johnson only 91. Now, the particular article did not mean any disrespect towards Moelders or Hartmann. It was merely stating the prowess of Johnson as compared to some famous LW aces. Indeed he was a firey, fearsome pilot. But every time I see that article I am compelled to think what Johnson's final tally would have been, if he had to fly one thousand sorties till the war's end.

 The improperness of war, (and life as well, I guess) is that Johnson may very well have been shot down and killed if perhaps he flew just one more day, one more sortie. Individual skill and careful tactics increases one's chance of survival and decreases likeliness of being killed during combat, but in the real world "shi* happens". Like you mentioned, Otto kittel, one incident, one day, and bam, it's over. Same holds for McGuire - one more sortie, one more chance for a kill, and bam, America's finest ace augers to death.

 When I think of it that way, sometimes I feel the sheer length of time some of those LW aces had to fly, and still survive throughout the war, is perhaps the only thing really important about it all. Compared to that, achieving a certain number of kills suddenly doesn't look all that important.

 There's an annual highschool baseball tournament in Japaen called "Koshien" - named after the stadium where the final match is played. This is perhaps the most harsh type of tournament ever in the world of sports - nearly 5,000 high schools competing annually, in a tournament style play where each school plays only one game each round against one school. The winner advances, the loser is dropped out. In order to become the tournament champion, the team has to win every game upto the final championship match. Sometimes it seem an impossible task to win at such a tournament, but nevetheless every year there is a winner. It's just that you can't win that tournament by skill alone.

 Sometimes, I think that's how it might have been for the LW pilots. The objective is survive through the war, through some hundreds of sorties. One mistake and you are "dropped out" - literally, from the sky.

Offline humble

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« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2007, 08:40:49 AM »
Johnson was bounced and almost killed early in his career my Egon Meyer (or Lang). All that saved him was the fact that Meyer had run out of 20mm already. He actually felt like his plane was unflyable and tried to bail out but the canopy was so shot up he couldnt get it open. So he managed to nurse it home and had to be pryed out of the wreck....

There is one well known german ace {Adolf Glunz}who not only was never shot down/scratched but his plane NEVER took any serious damage (possibly not even a bullet hole). He once went "glider" {engine siezed due to mechanical failure} during a fight with two p-47's and managed to escape them and ditch. He flew 500+ sorties (almost all in the west), engaged in 232 documented aerial combats and scored 71 kills.

As for Hartmann, no question he was an exceptionally talented and deadly pilot. He already had significant time (flew gliders at 14) and his initial training was done by probably the best pure fighter pilot in the luftwaffe (in the AH DA sense) Erich Hohagen. He was an exceptional pilot similiar to Bob Hoover (widely considered the best "dueler" among WW2 US pilots). His initial combat mentor was Edmund Rossman who was strictly a shoot & scoot (badly injured arm gave him no other choice). Once hartmann acheived enough success to control his tactics he favored these tactics and only used his real skills when forced to. 90% of his kills were pure bounces....

So in the end it really comes down to your perception of the "best". Do you value a B&Z "cherry picker" more then a true dogfighter. This is not ment to diminish the value of his accomplishments or his bravery. He simply flew very "smart" from an SA viewpoint. I'd put him well down the list compared to many others in the luftwaffe if the criteria is on combat (which I equate to "dueling" skill).

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