Global Warming

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
people are starting to get wise to the whole thing...  It is like when so many were all atwitter at the movies of michel moore and and after defending him for a few months actually did some research and found out he.... like algore...

was a big fat liar.   and that hollywierd was handing out awards to him (like algore) based on having the correct PC socialist stance on the subject and that being a liar was ok.

lazs

Well, of course, Moore lied about kids being killed in Columbine....
I rather think that some trie not to ponder on, or simply face things that could turn out to be an inconvenient...truth.

[john9001]

google "carbon offsets", you can now pay a non-profit group to "offset" your carbon footprint. Just like a big corp, you can buy carbon credits.

looks like global warming has become a business, non-profit of course.

[Angus]

Everything is business.
Just a question where the really big bucks hang around, that's all....

[lazs2]

oboe.. that is a pretty apples and oranges comparison but I will try to answer it if you narrow it down a bit.

Do I see any hope of the government helping mankind by growing in power and scope to address a minute contribution that man may be making to global warming?   No... I see it as a minus..  a lose lose..  I am against panic driven growing of government and the stifling of free trade.   I believe that MTBE as an example is what happens when government is given power over the free market.   Higher taxes and fees do not help anyone.  

What this has to do with the war in iraq... I can only guess.   The war and it's cost can be seen as hope of stabilizing an oil rich region and fighting islamfacists on their ground.   There are tangible benifiets.

I don't really care tho... If the islamonazis vaporize a few blue cities it really is no skin off my butt... in fact... it will just help me (if I want to look at it pragmaticaly).

less blue voters... less blue politicians...  less time for them to worry about what I am doing or get involved in micromanaging my life.

I don't care about the war one way or another but I think it is a pretty good thing to do and would have to happen some time no matter what.  

even if the money spent their could be proven to be a total waste with no value... it would still be preferable to spending the money on increasing government and socialism here.   I would rather burn the money than give it to a socialist.

lazs

[Dowding]

Toad - you're on to something there. I think I'll develop a new range of absorbant Egyptian cotton rings that can be worn around the wrist. I'll market them as 'sweat neutral' and make millions upon millions of pounds and never have to worry about another environmental tax again!

I think I'm getting more and more cynical in my old age... and I'm only 28. Perhaps a sign of the times?

BTW, Toad, I might have a few questions about the civil aviation industry. I'm about to take my last professional accountancy exam and the case study is on an airline - if I remember correctly you're a pilot and I seem to remember you had some experience or at least an informed opinion about the industrial relations side of things? If anything crops up while I'm researching the subject, could I ask a few questions?

Cheers.

[Angus]

You're young and with a master's degree.
28. You're just beginning

[Dowding]

I lied Angus. I'm actually 28 and 7 months.

And getting married next year... it'll be bloody kids next! Mea culpa, what have I done! Life just seems to be flying by...

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by lazs2
ya think oboe?  and the war on drugs?  The war on poverty?   they are all a war on individualism and a war on freedom.  Ya can't tar one of em without taring them all with the same brush.

angus..  so now bush is some scientific genius?   He is wrong on everything until he gets on board the man made global warming bus?

dred... we can buy less SUV's?   How do we accomplish that?  You act like there are no other vehicles in the U.S. to buy.. Like we go to the dealer and all they have is SUV upon SUV and that you will force the dealer to give us a choice..

The opposite it true... we have more choice here than anywhere in the world.. what you want to do is increase the power of an government agency who can then force us to drive what they(and you)  want us to drive.   Vehicles today getter better milage than they did ten or twenty years ago and are far heavier with standard features on the cheapest that would make luxury cars blush 10 years ago..

This makes em heavy.. a tiny jap car weighs more than a 55 chevy.    We have choice now..  You want to get rid of choice.

I say let the free market give us more choice not the government give us less.

lazs

Yea..ok

quick search shows
2004 EPA ratings are as follows

2WD Trucks with 8-cylinder Engines


Chevy C15 Silverado Hybrid, A-4, 5.3L: 18 / 20
GMC C15 Sierra Hybrid, A-4, 5.3L: 18 / 20
Chevy C1500 Silverado, A-4, 4.8L: 17 / 20
GMC C1500 Sierra, A-4, 4.8L: 17 / 20
Chevy C1500 Silverado, M-5, 4.8L: 15 / 20
Dodge Dakota Pickup, A-5, 4.7L: 15 / 20
Dodge Dakota Pickup, M-5, 4.7L: 15 / 20
GMC C1500 Sierra, M-5, 4.8L: 15 / 20
Chevy C1500 Silverado, 5.3L: 16 / 19
GMC C1500 Sierra, A-4, 5.3L: 16 / 19
Chevy C1500 Silverado FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 15 / 19 (Gas)
Ford F150, A-4, 4.6L: 15 / 19
Ford F150, A-4, 5.4L: 15 / 19
GMC C1500 Sierra FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 15 / 19 (Gas)
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup, A-5, 4.7L: 14 / 19
Nissan Titan, A-5, 5.6L: 14 / 19
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, M-5, 4.7L: 14 / 19
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 14 / 19 (Gas)
Chevy C1500 Silverado, A-4, 6.0L: 14 / 18
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, A-5, 5.7L: 14 / 18
GMC C1500 Sierra, A-4, 6.0L: 14 / 18
Toyota Tundra, A-4, 4.7L: 14 / 18
Ford F150, A-4, 5.4L: 13 / 16 (P S)
Ford F150 Natural Gas, A-4, 5.4L: 12 / 16 (CNG)
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 12 / 16 (Gas)
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, A-5, 4.7L: 12 / 15 (Gas)
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 11 / 15 (LPG)
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 11 / 15 (CNG)
Chevy C1500 Silverado FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 11 / 14 (E85)
GMC C1500 Sierra FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 11 / 14 (E85)
Chevy 2500 HD Silverado, A-4, 6.0L: 10 / 12 (CNG)
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, A-5, 4.7L: 9 / 11 (E85



If all you are doing with your 8 cylinder whatever is going hunting and bringing the kiddies to soccer practice. Then you dont NEED an 8 cylinder whatever.

You own it just so you can say you own it
and all your dowing is pumping crap into the air that even if it has nothing to do with global warming still has alot to do with the air we breathe

I have an 8 cylinder Dodge and a 4 cylinder Hyundi

The 8 cylinder I use for work. I have a legitimate need as I am frequently hauling around alot of stuff

Most people do not.
they only get them to wallow in their wealth like so many little piggies as discribed by the Beatles in the song of the same name.

you dont NEED an 8 cylinder engine to haul around a deer carcass or a couple of cords of firewood a couple times a year.
Its just wasteful and gluttonous.

Nobody is messing with your choice
Keep your truck, just get a smaller engine and we can all breathe alot better

I promise. I wont tell anyone the size of your engine

but yea they can force you to drive what "they" want.

Driving is a privilege not a right, remember.

If it were a right. I'd side with you on this one. but its not.

[Angus]

Hehe, I don't even have a car.
And Dowding: Congrats, and good luck on the kid manufacture
I have 2, in my case it's much more fun than I though, while I want to kick everybody that told me (before) that it's not such a big job

[Toad]

Originally posted by Dowding
If anything crops up while I'm researching the subject, could I ask a few questions?

Cheers.

Sure, anytime. Just remember I'm an old Toad and I've been out of the game for a while.

I had some experience on the union side of it which led to my saying of "the only thing worse than a union is no union".

Industrial relations is quite simple; treat people the way you'd like to be treated if the situation was reversed.

What a concept!

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, I don't even have a car.
And Dowding: Congrats, and good luck on the kid manufacture
I have 2, in my case it's much more fun than I though, while I want to kick everybody that told me (before) that it's not such a big job

I would never have told you that.

what I might have said is in the words of my brother in law

"One is fun. and two is none"

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK

2004 EPA ratings are as follows
2WD Trucks with 8-cylinder Engines

Chevy C15 Silverado Hybrid, A-4, 5.3L: 18 / 20
GMC C15 Sierra Hybrid, A-4, 5.3L: 18 / 20
Chevy C1500 Silverado, A-4, 4.8L: 17 / 20
GMC C1500 Sierra, A-4, 4.8L: 17 / 20
Chevy C1500 Silverado, M-5, 4.8L: 15 / 20
Dodge Dakota Pickup, A-5, 4.7L: 15 / 20
Dodge Dakota Pickup, M-5, 4.7L: 15 / 20
GMC C1500 Sierra, M-5, 4.8L: 15 / 20
Chevy C1500 Silverado, 5.3L: 16 / 19
GMC C1500 Sierra, A-4, 5.3L: 16 / 19
Chevy C1500 Silverado FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 15 / 19 (Gas)
Ford F150, A-4, 4.6L: 15 / 19
Ford F150, A-4, 5.4L: 15 / 19
GMC C1500 Sierra FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 15 / 19 (Gas)
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup, A-5, 4.7L: 14 / 19
Nissan Titan, A-5, 5.6L: 14 / 19
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, M-5, 4.7L: 14 / 19
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 14 / 19 (Gas)
Chevy C1500 Silverado, A-4, 6.0L: 14 / 18
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, A-5, 5.7L: 14 / 18
GMC C1500 Sierra, A-4, 6.0L: 14 / 18
Toyota Tundra, A-4, 4.7L: 14 / 18
Ford F150, A-4, 5.4L: 13 / 16 (P S)
Ford F150 Natural Gas, A-4, 5.4L: 12 / 16 (CNG)
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 12 / 16 (Gas)
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, A-5, 4.7L: 12 / 15 (Gas)
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 11 / 15 (LPG)
F150 Pickup (bi-fuel), A-4, 5.4L: 11 / 15 (CNG)
Chevy C1500 Silverado FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 11 / 14 (E85)
GMC C1500 Sierra FFV, A-4, 5.3L: 11 / 14 (E85)
Chevy 2500 HD Silverado, A-4, 6.0L: 10 / 12 (CNG)
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup FFV, A-5, 4.7L: 9 / 11 (E85

 

Big Trucks & Big Motors have their place - we've got a big Dodge Ram with the  dual back tires setup we use for hauling hay, straw, horse feed, etc. and towing the horse trailer.  There are plenty of valid uses for a big truck, and the last thing we need is the Gov't deciding who needs one and who doesn't.  The market will do that just fine - if you don't have a legitimate purpose for having a big truck, you get tired of paying $60 for a fill-up pretty quickly.

Frankly, the market is doing just fine switching us to alternate fuels too - you notice that the bottom of that list has 3 E85 (flex fuel) trucks listed (and this is the '04 list).  

Transportation is a straight cost per mile calculation - whether it is your commute to work, or the cost to a business to have your goods delivered.  Don't worry - when oil gets up and we see $3+ gas as a norm, the cost of alternative fuels like ethanol/E85, and biodiesel become competitive on a cost per mile basis and the raw economics drives the change.  Frankly, for our country, a switch to ethanol is a good thing - I'd rather see those dollars going to farmers co-ops & ADM than to OPEC.

EagleDNY

[oboe]

Originally posted by lazs2
oboe.. that is a pretty apples and oranges comparison but I will try to answer it if you narrow it down a bit.

Do I see any hope of the government helping mankind by growing in power and scope to address a minute contribution that man may be making to global warming?   No... I see it as a minus..  a lose lose..  I am against panic driven growing of government and the stifling of free trade.   I believe that MTBE as an example is what happens when government is given power over the free market.   Higher taxes and fees do not help anyone.  

What this has to do with the war in iraq... I can only guess.   The war and it's cost can be seen as hope of stabilizing an oil rich region and fighting islamfacists on their ground.   There are tangible benifiets.

I don't really care tho... If the islamonazis vaporize a few blue cities it really is no skin off my butt... in fact... it will just help me (if I want to look at it pragmaticaly).

less blue voters... less blue politicians...  less time for them to worry about what I am doing or get involved in micromanaging my life.

I don't care about the war one way or another but I think it is a pretty good thing to do and would have to happen some time no matter what.  

even if the money spent their could be proven to be a total waste with no value... it would still be preferable to spending the money on increasing government and socialism here.   I would rather burn the money than give it to a socialist.

lazs

I think there are interesting parallels between Global Warming and the War on Terror.

• Both have a strident group of alarmists behind them (neocons vs gw scientists), predicting the end of the world or at least catastrophic consequences if nothing is done.
• Both have a crystallizing event that the public can take as an example of what's to come - with War on Terror, its 9/11, with Global Warming, Katrina.
• There is fudged, cherrypicked intelligence being used to make stronger cases in both situations.

Perhaps if Al Gore had one in 2000, we'd be 4 years and $500 billion into a war on global warming, instead of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.   You say you are against "panic driven growing of government and the stifling of free trade".    Well that is exactly what we got with the War on Terror.   Do you realize how big the Dept of Homeland Security is?

btw, I'm over the opinion that the MTBE fiasco is what happens when corporations have too much power over government.   The EPA knew MTBE was water soluble when it approved it for use as an oxygenate.   But it was the cheaper of the two alternatives, so the Bush I admin gave distillers a choice of which one two use.    We're just lucky in Minnesota that ethanol was chosen here-- though I think that had more to do with the ethanol lobby than luck.

I think you better be careful what you say.  Making public statements in favor of terrorists nuking an American city could make you a person of interest to the NSA, NSS, or FBI.    You could wind up being declared an illegal enemy combatant.   If they search your house, are they gonna find a suspicious number of weapons?

[lazs2]

oboe.. you can compare anything to anything...  there are always similarities when spending and government are concerned... all government spending is waste.

If you are saying that then I agree with you.

The difference is not a minor one tho... If the government is spending it's money and resources fighting islamfacists in another country instead of focusing on gaining more power over me and restricting more of what I do... that is a plus for me.  

I think the patriot act is a very bad thing but... it affects me not one whit.  Not yet anyway..  If they banned all cars over 10 years old and all firearms... it would affect me in a huge way.  If they made a bunch of mandates that cost money and gave me inferior choices.. that is important.  If the EPA grows in strength we will all suffer on a daily basis... if your water bill or sewer or garbage bill goes to $150 a month for each you will notice it... if gas goes to $6 a gallon and 3 of that is tax... you will notice...  if the price of cars goes up 39% you will notice.

As for my "compound"  I am legal.  I have a lot of weapons and ammo (by some standards but not an unusual amount).. all legal...  I have no doubt that the lefty press would make a big deal of what was found... the other day they caught a pedophile and mentioned that he had "800 rounds of ammunition"  wow... if you buy ammo from the CMP ( a government program) you have to buy it in thousand round lots... if you buy 22 ammo you usually buy it in bricks of 500 or 2500..  

I will never make the left happy with what guns or ammo I own.  I won't try.  I don't have to convince them it is all legal nor do I care what they write about me.. the jury is all that matters and whatever real crime they think I commited..  the guns and ammo thing are just a sideshow... I am not worried..

But... would I feel safer with gore?  Hell no.. he would direct the hounds of government to go after legal gun owners and to make new gun laws...  

I feel safer with a conservative government and a patriot act in a war than a liberal socialist one in a war against individualism...  by a long shot.

No way can you convince me that them fighting terrorists in iraq is as dangerous to my freedom as them declaring war on "man made global warming"   It is laughable.

lazs

[lazs2]

as for MTBE and corporations... Corporations always go for the fat and wasteful government jobs... even better if they are ill thought out..

It is like smog devices in the 70's and the retrofits for earlier cars.. all the hurried regulation almost killed our economy.. the cars ran like crap and the net result was cars that ran worse and polluted more... and.. the corporations got fat.

When tech caught up... fuelinjection controled by computers...  the cars simply ran cleaner.. it was easy to make em clean.. it was rare that one didn't exceed standards that were pulled out of some EPA morons butt.

Same for MTBE.. if you don't have the skill set to determine EXACTLY what the consequences will be... don't do the mandate.

If you think corporations are evil then simply quit giving them mandates that they can profit off of with little or no effort and no research.   It was the mandate that was evil... the corporations were only living by the law.   The scientists at the the refineries were even telling anyone who would listen about how toxic the MTBE was...  manufacturers were saying how it would cause car fires from rotted hoses... the EPA said.."tough"  cars burned and water was poisoned...  how are the corporations to blame?  

lazs