F4U1a vs P51D

[BluKitty]

I'd also add that the stability of your gunning platform matters.  The f4u has a bit more stabilty at mid ranged speeds... The p51 takes a little more attention to keep it stable and not bounce your nose when shooting.  This can have an effect as well.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by jhookt
generally speaking, now is when Widewing would hop into this thread and supply us with mountains of info to prove one way or the other. since he hasn't, it is either A) a not valid idea  or  B) like bronk said and is a subconscience thing.  either way, one thing i have noticed is switching from .50's to cannon is hard sometimes, i have to remind myself to lead according to the plane i'm in.

Remember, guns were situated to the outside of the propeller arc. Thus, the larger the propeller, the further out the guns must be. When we look at the diameter of the P-51D's prop we find that it is 11'2" in diameter. Looking at the F4U, we find a diameter of 13'6". I also have annotated drawings of the P-51D and F4U showing the distance measured from centerline of the fuselage to the centerline of the inside machine gun.

Span from centerline of left inside gun to centerline of right inside gun....

P-51D: 13'2"
F4U: 15'10"

Therefore, the F4U's guns have naturally greater convergence angle than those of the P-51D.

My regards,

Widewing

[detch01]

Originally posted by Widewing
Span from centerline of left inside gun to centerline of right inside gun....

P-51D: 13'2"
F4U: 15'10"

Therefore, the F4U's guns have naturally greater convergence angle than those of he P-51D.

My regards,

Widewing

 Now I have to come with a new theory

Thx Wide:lol

asw

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by Widewing
Remember, guns were situated to the outside of the propeller arc. Thus, the larger the propeller, the further out the guns must be. When we look at the diameter of the P-51D's prop we find that it is 11'2" in diameter. Looking at the F4U, we find a diameter of 13'6". I also have annotated drawings of the P-51D and F4U showing the distance measured from centerline of the fuselage to the centerline of the inside machine gun.

Span from centerline of left inside gun to centerline of right inside gun....

P-51D: 13'2"
F4U: 15'10"

Therefore, the F4U's guns have naturally greater convergence angle than those of the P-51D.

My regards,

Widewing

Agreed Widewing that the angle is greater for the F4U since the guns are wider out, but is the angle of convergence of the 2 bullet streams 300 yards away really that significant a difference?

Here's the math:
Distance in inches - center gun to center gun:
P51: 158 inches
F4U: 190 inches

Distance in inches - aircraft centerline to center gun (1/2 the above):
P51: 79 inches off aircraft centerline
F4U: 95 inches off aircraft centerline

Target Point: 300 Yards Convergence on aircraft centerline:
10,800 inches

Doing a quick SAS (Side, Angle, Side) on this triangle gives you the degree of cant of the guns to give you convergence at 300 yds.  90 Degrees would be the guns firing straight ahead, so to get them to converge they are set inward at the following angles:

P51: 89.580 degrees (.420 degrees inward on each wing)
F4U: 89.496 degrees (.504 degrees inward on each wing)

The makes the angle of bullet impact 300 yards out is less than 1/10 of 1 degree different between the two.  Can it really make that much difference?

Not that I actually fly the F4Us (or the P51s much for that matter), but if the anecdotal evidence really says that the F4Us guns are that much more lethal than a P51s, I think I'd do some more testing.  

EagleDNY
$.02

[Widewing]

Originally posted by EagleDNY
Agreed Widewing that the angle is greater for the F4U since the guns are wider out, but is the angle of convergence of the 2 bullet streams 300 yards away really that significant a difference?

Well, the difference in angle is completely insignificant. I was addressing the question of which was greatest.

My regards,

Widewing

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by EagleDNY
Agreed Widewing that the angle is greater for the F4U since the guns are wider out, but is the angle of convergence of the 2 bullet streams 300 yards away really that significant a difference?

Here's the math:
Distance in inches - center gun to center gun:
P51: 158 inches
F4U: 190 inches

Distance in inches - aircraft centerline to center gun (1/2 the above):
P51: 79 inches off aircraft centerline
F4U: 95 inches off aircraft centerline

Target Point: 300 Yards Convergence on aircraft centerline:
10,800 inches

Doing a quick SAS (Side, Angle, Side) on this triangle gives you the degree of cant of the guns to give you convergence at 300 yds.  90 Degrees would be the guns firing straight ahead, so to get them to converge they are set inward at the following angles:

P51: 89.580 degrees (.420 degrees inward on each wing)
F4U: 89.496 degrees (.504 degrees inward on each wing)

The makes the angle of bullet impact 300 yards out is less than 1/10 of 1 degree different between the two.  Can it really make that much difference?

Not that I actually fly the F4Us (or the P51s much for that matter), but if the anecdotal evidence really says that the F4Us guns are that much more lethal than a P51s, I think I'd do some more testing.  

EagleDNY
$.02

I think widewing was just reaffirming that there is a difference in the angle of convergence, but the consensus is that there is no difference in the effectiveness of the two!  The P-51's guns work exactly as good as the F4U-1!

[Grits]

Someone always thinks the .50 in one plane is harder hitting in another, I've seen them all claimed one way or the other. HT has spoken on this before, in the game a .50 cal is a .50 cal only the placement is different.

[EagleDNY]

Speaking of .50 Cal damage, I saw an episode of futureweapons last night where they were testing the AS50 (a .50 cal semi-auto sniper rifle).  At 600 yards, vs a target consisting of 2 steel plates seperated by 1 meter, a .50 cal API round went right through both steel plates.  The plates weren't that thick I grant you, but for sure they were a lot tougher than aircraft aluminum.

Another test was engaging a simulated enemy hiding behind a concrete wall at 600 yards.  To simulate this, they put 2 melons behind a concrete block about 3 inches thick (which appropriately looked like a headstone).  The .50 Cal hit shattered both the concrete block and the melon representing the target's head.

Final test was accuracy - the shooter was able to consistently put .50 cal rounds in a 3 inch circle on a target 2,000 yards away.  

I'm convinced - the .50 cal is deadly.  If you got 6 of those in your wings, you got all you need.

EagleDNY
$.02

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by BluKitty
I'd also add that the stability of your gunning platform matters.  The f4u has a bit more stabilty at mid ranged speeds... The p51 takes a little more attention to keep it stable and not bounce your nose when shooting.  This can have an effect as well.

Blu....i love that avatar.

[20MikeMike]

This is why I use a P-38, 4 Ma Deuces and a 20mm Hispano in the nose

[Keiler]

Originally posted by EagleDNY


Final test was accuracy - the shooter was able to consistently put .50 cal rounds in a 3 inch circle on a target 2,000 yards away.  

Not saying your memory is wrong, but the .50 cal is nowhere near as accurate as 3" at 2000yds. Its more like 2-3' at this range with the best ammo available (if at all) given no wind, no gusts and a gun bolted to half a ton of concrete.

Best regards,
Matt

[Serenity]

Having nevev flown either, I speek from the guy-gettin-shot-at side of things. The F4U1A seems to have much more powerful guns. I have seen a P-51D behind me in my Bf-109, have taken a half second burst but only lost a few control services. The same half second burst, from the same distance, from an F4U1A shreds me. Not even a half second and im dead. They just seem to be lazer beams...

[Kweassa]

Having nevev flown either, I speek from the guy-gettin-shot-at side of things. The F4U1A seems to have much more powerful guns. I have seen a P-51D behind me in my Bf-109, have taken a half second burst but only lost a few control services. The same half second burst, from the same distance, from an F4U1A shreds me. Not even a half second and im dead. They just seem to be lazer beams...

 That's because the F4U1 pilots are usually a lot more aggressive than the P51 pilots.


 When a F4U1 pilot is 200 yards behind a 109, he thinks of shooting it down.

 When a P51 pilot is 200 yards begind a 109, he thinks, "Oh crap, the enemy is so near me! I'm so skeeeerd.. I gotta get away!" and starts losing his nerve, and gets ready to 'extend' the moment the 109 even flinches, thinking that it might be some kind of a "turning the tables" maneuver.

 Therefore, "in effect", 50cals used by tougher guys will hit a lot harder than sissies usings 50cals.

 
 

[TEShaw]

No offence, but, this is the stupidest pile of misspelling and gibberish that I've ever seen in text.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Serenity
Having nevev flown either, I speek from the guy-gettin-shot-at side of things. The F4U1A seems to have much more powerful guns. I have seen a P-51D behind me in my Bf-109, have taken a half second burst but only lost a few control services. The same half second burst, from the same distance, from an F4U1A shreds me. Not even a half second and im dead. They just seem to be lazer beams...

The F4u had his convergence at a short range for dogfighting. The P51 probably set his to 600 yards to get maximum effect from 500 mph cherry picking...