F4U1a vs P51D

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by Keiler
Not saying your memory is wrong, but the .50 cal is nowhere near as accurate as 3" at 2000yds. Its more like 2-3' at this range with the best ammo available (if at all) given no wind, no gusts and a gun bolted to half a ton of concrete.

Best regards,
Matt

Maybe for the Ma Deuce that is the case, but this guy was shooting at a man sized "target" (head) at 2,000 yards and getting hits.  Admittedly, this is the .50 Cal Sniper Rifle and not a machine gun - the gun is likely to have different rifling and may even have special ammo (not all .50 cal is alike).  

Believe me, I can't make that shot, and I was properly amazed that he was able to...

EagleDNY
$.02

[wrag]

Originally posted by EagleDNY
Maybe for the Ma Deuce that is the case, but this guy was shooting at a man sized "target" (head) at 2,000 yards and getting hits.  Admittedly, this is the .50 Cal Sniper Rifle and not a machine gun - the gun is likely to have different rifling and may even have special ammo (not all .50 cal is alike).  

Believe me, I can't make that shot, and I was properly amazed that he was able to...

EagleDNY
$.02

IIRC information on the .50 cal rifles is...................

Standard .50 cal ammo is designed for the MG.  Weights and the construction of each round, jacket thickness, powder charge, etc, are not exact.  The range of plus or minus to a specific standard is large.

Why?

It is desirable when firing the ammo through a MG that there be dispersion!

When using a sniper version the ammo construction is far more controlled and the round is kept to a specific weight, diameter, jacket density and conformity, powder charge, etc are highly contolled.  The range to a specific standard is close to NIL AND VERY EXACTING!

[KINGcobra]

all,
even thow the .50 call seems small,it actually weighs about 1lb,even if their is a difference in the bullets weight 20hits on a wing is like another 20lbs if the power of the rounds are the same, the lethality of the round has been dimed down.

witch brings up another subject,are .50cals dimmed down

[Keiler]

Originally posted by wrag
IIRC information on the .50 cal rifles is...................

Standard .50 cal ammo is designed for the MG.  Weights and the construction of each round, jacket thickness, powder charge, etc, are not exact.  The range of plus or minus to a specific standard is large.

Why?

It is desirable when firing the ammo through a MG that there be dispersion!

When using a sniper version the ammo construction is far more controlled and the round is kept to a specific weight, diameter, jacket density and conformity, powder charge, etc are highly contolled.  The range to a specific standard is close to NIL AND VERY EXACTING!

Its also a LOT CHEAPER to crank out 180 rounds per minute (mass produced bullets from different machines = different weights and composition, slight differences in powder lots, eg burnrate, different case volumes, different primers) and manufacturing lane than to make one bullet per 5 seconds, not counting any quality control issues. Mil grade ball will just get checked for weight, over-all-length, seal of primer and neck, crimp, optical issues (dinged case, bullet not seated the wrong way).
High qual match ammo comes from one lane, one powder lot, one case lot, one bullet lot, all checked for consistency.
Easy to imagine whats better (from a budgetary standpoint) to crank out of a MG or a sniper rifle!

Regards,
Matt

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Keiler
Not saying your memory is wrong, but the .50 cal is nowhere near as accurate as 3" at 2000yds. Its more like 2-3' at this range with the best ammo available (if at all) given no wind, no gusts and a gun bolted to half a ton of concrete.

Best regards,
Matt

He got the 3 right ... the goal of the gun is to maintain a 30" group at 2000 yrds which should be maintainable due to it being a sem-auto and employing a new and sophisticated dampening of the recoil.

So, if the first round is on target, then the following 4 rounds should be able to be dropped within 30" of the first round. The host fired all 5 rounds in 1.5 seconds.

Here is the show clip on YouTube ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfnwyJvtJuI

[SlapShot]

Believe me, I can't make that shot, and I was properly amazed that he was able to...

The Host of the show is an ex-Navy SEAL ... my guess is that he is/was a trained SEAL Sniper.

[Pyro]

The only difference between .50s is between ground vehicles and aircraft.  Aircraft .50s use a 36" barrel versus a 45" barrel on ground vehicles.  That equates to something like an extra 100 fps M.V. for the GV .50s.

That said, the F4U does hit harder on average(not at peak) due to the differences in their ammo loads.  If you fire all of your guns together, both planes will have 30 seconds of fire.  After about 20 seconds the P-51 will run out of ammo on 4 of its guns and be left with only 2 for the remaining 10 seconds.  After about 28 seconds the F4U will run out of ammo for 2 of its guns and be left
with 4 guns for the remaining 2 seconds.  Over the course of 30 seconds, the F4U will deliver 25% more firepower.

[20MikeMike]

Honestly, I don't one has more powerful guns than the other. I think it's just pilot skill, convergance, what you were flying against(Spit, Fw-190, etc.) and what forces were acting on the bullet  (if you shoot a guy flying level or in a turn).  By the way snipers still fire mil grade .50 BMG ball ammo from their guns and these aircraft are using AP-HE so either way, it's going to do alot of damage.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Pyro
The only difference between .50s is between ground vehicles and aircraft.  Aircraft .50s use a 36" barrel versus a 45" barrel on ground vehicles.  That equates to something like an extra 100 fps M.V. for the GV .50s.

That said, the F4U does hit harder on average(not at peak) due to the differences in their ammo loads.  If you fire all of your guns together, both planes will have 30 seconds of fire.  After about 20 seconds the P-51 will run out of ammo on 4 of its guns and be left with only 2 for the remaining 10 seconds.  After about 28 seconds the F4U will run out of ammo for 2 of its guns and be left
with 4 guns for the remaining 2 seconds.  Over the course of 30 seconds, the F4U will deliver 25% more firepower.

Thats for that info Pyro ... can you give me the same info for the FM2 ?

[Pyro]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Thats for that info Pyro ... can you give me the same info for the FM2 ?

The FM2 has the same number of rounds in all 4 of its guns so lethality remains constant through the entire ammo load when you fire all guns.

Aircraft .50s have a fire rate of 800 rpm.  FM2's duration of fire in minutes would be 430/800 = .5375 minutes or 32.25 seconds.

BTW, another difference between the .50s in the aircraft and GVs is rate of fire.  The aircraft .50s have a higher rate of fire.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Pyro
The FM2 has the same number of rounds in all 4 of its guns so lethality remains constant through the entire ammo load when you fire all guns.

Aircraft .50s have a fire rate of 800 rpm.  FM2's duration of fire in minutes would be 430/800 = .5375 minutes or 32.25 seconds.

BTW, another difference between the .50s in the aircraft and GVs is rate of fire.  The aircraft .50s have a higher rate of fire.

  ... thanks !!!

[Serenity]

Originally posted by bozon
The F4u had his convergence at a short range for dogfighting. The P51 probably set his to 600 yards to get maximum effect from 500 mph cherry picking...

The distance was about 600 yards, so the P-51 would have had the advantage in that situation...

[humble]

Originally posted by Keiler
Not saying your memory is wrong, but the .50 cal is nowhere near as accurate as 3" at 2000yds. Its more like 2-3' at this range with the best ammo available (if at all) given no wind, no gusts and a gun bolted to half a ton of concrete.

Best regards,
Matt

Actually a .50 cal sniper rifle is vey much that accuarate. It's a sub MOA rifle to start with. A match tuned barrel and match grade ammo make it very accurate. The SR-25 is a .75 MOA or better out of the box. Accuracy under .5 MOA is very possible. A world class sniper could hit a headshot at 2000M with a SR-25....however I'd assume the range is 2200 ft (660 M) which is considered the max effective range for the SR-25 (and similiar weapons) A group in the 1.5-2 in range would be pretty standard for a world class marksman with matchgrade 168 gr ammo.

[SkyRock]

F4U-1<---owns the pony!

[humble]

accuacy with the SR-25 or similiar is astounding. This is a "blurb"...


"On a bullet-drop-compensating scope, the elevation knob has, as its increment markings, yards or meters . . . not 1/4 MOA markings (for example). To hit a target at 500 meters, just set the elevation knob to "5." To hit a target at 300 meters, just set the elevation knob to "3." The knob has graduations from 1 (for 100 meters) out to 10 (for 1000 meters). If you know the range of the target, you can hit it every time very rapidly. For every different caliber gun on which the scope is used, a standard load has to be used, as well as a properly calibrated elevation knob. The disadvantage to this sort of setup is that the ammunition used has to use a certain projectile fired with a certain muzzle speed. The shooter cannot use any bullet desired which is launched at any speed desired. The Leupold MK-IV M3's 7.62x51 elevation knob is calibrated for 173 grain bullets launched at 2550 fps. The scope came with elevation knobs calibrated for the following cartridges: 5.56x45, .308 Winchester (7.62x51), 30-06 Springfield (7.62x63), and .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62xA whole bunch of millimeters!). If you want to be able to shoot any handload through your weapon, then get the MK-IV M1. All I'm going to shoot through my SR-25 is the Federal Gold Match, so the M3 should work fine (Note: the Federal Gold Match in 7.62x51 uses a 168 grain bullet as opposed to the 173 grain bullet for which the dial is calibrated. This works fine out to 500 yards. It might throw things off at greater distances, in which case I'll just need to pick up some Lake City Match Ammo! Of course, I could just learn how to adjust the scope, accordingly, to compensate)."


I picked the SR-25 since I've shot it. The best ammo for the SR-25 is 168 grain match ammo. Correctly adjusted and calibrated with scope and tripod you can easily hit a coke can at 500 M. You can hit at 1000 if wind conditions are right. The gun is so consistant that its drop (with match ammo) is amazingly consistant. The range I shoot at isnt long enough for measured distance shooting (The NRA nationals are only 600 yd for example) so I have no 1st hand experience at 1000M....but my understanding is site is accurate all the way up to 1000M.