Perk US bombers

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Krusty



It's an arbitrary choice "how do I want these points tallied up?". So having an attack perk category is pointless, as is having dedicated attack hangars.

It should not be a choice IMO.......... if you bomb stuff and straff stuff then you should not be rewarded with currency (perks) that you can then use to buy(place deposits upon) superior fighters.

Equally when bomb loadouts eventually become perked then you should not be able to earn currency as a fighter to to latterly use it to purchase/place deposit upon bombs.

The score system may be arbitary re rank etc but perks are actually a currency used within the game.

Indeed this thread is about the lack of stuff that  perks can be used for with respect to bombers............

My opinion is that bomber perks should be used to buy big bombs............. (for bombers)

My opinion is that attack perks should also be used to buy big bombs..........(for attackers)

My opinion is that fighter perks should be used to buy unusual or heavy cannon loadouts.................

This in addition to the use of perks to aquire superior rides.............

Further we note that some rides are infact pure attack rides and should not be reffered to as bombers or fighters..............

and further still we note that some attack/ bombers should be able to dive bomb with pilot bomb release (ju88) but not when in formation. The attack category (which could eliminate formations when chosen) allows the COAD to switch between formation  (level) bombing using F6 and attack non formation bombing using pilots view point.

Providing part of an elegent solution (IMO) to some of the poor game play situations that occurr when folk game the formation model. (dive bombing lancs etc) That allows some duality without sacrifice to  game play.

I agree that an "attack hanger" is not required.......

Frankly I dont care a fig for the score system it can stay as it is.................. nothing with respect to attack perk points need change the score system....................... .....

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Krusty
"attack" is only an arbitrary score category. It means "I want GV kills to count". Fighter means "I only want aircraft kills to count". You can up a heavy P47, drop 2 bombs on 2 panzers, kill 4 planes then rtb. If it's in "attack" mode you'll get 2 registered kills. However your death won't ruin the score any, because in attack your deaths don't matter (you're going in to attack an object that will probably kill you) whereas in fighter kills matter more because it's usually air to air, you lost out to another player. If you do the same sortie as "fighter" you would get 4 kills, but if you died after #4 it would be worse off for your score.


So the mission profile doesn't change at all. It's an arbitrary choice "how do I want these points tallied up?". So having an attack perk category is pointless, as is having dedicated attack hangars.

Yes but it doesn't have to remain arbitrary.
By the end of the war there were AC specifically designed to attack tactical ground targets/GVs.

IMHO Having dedicated attack ac might move lancastukas drivers to other AC.
If there were a plane for them.
Example plane set list

Non perk

Hurri 2d
IL2m
A-20

Perk
Ju87-g
Il2 type 3m,   37 mm up gunned variant
A-26

Bronk

Edit: I'd also like to see Bomber perks tallied on Strat targets/fighter kills only.
Hitting bases and towns is a tactical matter. This is where attack ac come into play.

[rogerdee]

another varation would be to have a early b17 a early b24  and  have the later model with the more guns and better bomb load perked.

 we do need more bombers  and things to use the bomber perks on,but with more bombers we need better strat targets to kill .

how about proper harbours with freighters to sink proper bridges and railways,railway yards to bomb ect ect.

[hubsonfire]

I support perking the ord, and the drones, but not the bombers themselves.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by rogerdee
how about proper harbours with freighters to sink proper bridges and railways,railway yards to bomb ect ect.

depots & rail terminals?.......... a more joined up strat model? I would love to see this too but would it benefit the MA?

I would love to see the depot make a return.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.basically a capturable feature (depot, bridge, rail terminal, cross roads, etc etc) which is not a spawn source but is part of the strat model.

[Puck]

No need to perk the planes.  HTC is already adding an ordinance perk system.  A multitude of problems solved with only a plethora of problems created.

[Krusty]

Yes, only... perk what ord?

1,000lb bombs were quite common in bombers. Not so common in jabo. So maybe fighters have to pay to use them, bombers probably won't.

4,000lb bombs available on the Lancasters, well they were common, and they cut a large chunk out of your bombload (from 14x 1k bombs down to 9 I think). They're really only useful against strat, which is what they were intended for. Using 3 of them on hangars is overkill since 1x 1k (with a formation) will take down any hangar. So, why perk it?

The Stuka has an 1800kg bomb. Only, it's a stuka. It's pretty much a death trap as-is, even when NOT made to fly even slower and more sluggish with a big 1800kg weight underneath it. It might take out a hangar, if it happens to get into an enemy field without being shot down (let's face it, a B5N could shoot this thing down, and it doesn't even have nose guns!!!!!). So I don't really see a reason to perk that either.

Perking ord might help fighters, but it really won't help bombers. Not anytime soon. This isn't going to come out til after CT is my guess, and that'll be in 2 weeks, we all know.

Which leads us back to our original problem: Nothing to spend bomber perks on.


Perk the B24!!!

[Puck]

Not my game.  IMHO?

1000 lb: medium perk.  14 1000lb x 3, BIG perks.
500 lb: little perk.  
250: free
100: free


I need to double check, but I seem to recall the most common bombs in bombers was not the 1k, and it was rare on fighters.  500 seems to be the "usual" load out, but then they weren't laser guided.  These are.  My No.1 source on this is a conversation I had long ago with my father, who flew in B24s during that little fracas, and could be wrong.  However...

...we don't have historical targets, so why worry about historical bomber load outs.  Historically you shut down an airfield by cratering the runway and shooting up the planes.  We just drop on a few hangers and *poof*.

8x250=!hanger.  8/3 aircraft in a formation=salvo 3.  Job done.  
For JABO, that's 4 aircraft with 2 bombs each.  

We won't get into the plethora of problems this solution crates.  I can think of five or six without actually trying.

[Spikes]

anyone seen Memphis Belle?  they had 500 lb bombs, said they used 500's for their bomb load almost all the time

[skycaptn]

Krusty is begining to get that way.

The B-24 is the easiest 4 engined bomber in this game to kill.
I think I speak for most of the good fighter jockies when i say killing buffs is like taking candy from a baby.

Instead of perking up the bombers and their ords just add another plane to the plane set..  Give us the B-29 or maybe a perk option for formations over 3 planes.. value based on model.  Most buff guys would gladly spend perkies on a couple extra buffs.

And as a fighter guy I say bring it on.. I would love to see some of the plebians I eat alive in the MA with more buffs for me to chew up

[Bronk]

Originally posted by skycaptn
Krusty is begining to get that way.

The B-24 is the easiest 4 engined bomber in this game to kill.
I think I speak for most of the good fighter jockies when i say killing buffs is like taking candy from a baby.

Instead of perking up the bombers and their ords just add another plane to the plane set..  Give us the B-29 or maybe a perk option for formations over 3 planes.. value based on model.  Most buff guys would gladly spend perkies on a couple extra buffs.

And as a fighter guy I say bring it on.. I would love to see some of the plebians I eat alive in the MA with more buffs for me to chew up

It's about over use .
90% of heavy bombers seen are 24s. If HT can perk chog for over use why not the 24?

Bronk

[skycaptn]

Numbers my boy numbers...
The dominance of the C-hog was so complete and total that at its prime it accounted for nearly 50% of the kills in the MA!

The B-24 is neither that dominate or that amazing a bomber.

But, tell you what.. lets keep it nice and even

For the bomber jocks perk the B-24's

Then to make it even perk every fighter plane that can catch a B-24.

Then we will all be happy.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by skycaptn
Numbers my boy numbers...
The dominance of the C-hog was so complete and total that at its prime it accounted for nearly 50% of the kills in the MA!

The B-24 is neither that dominate or that amazing a bomber.

But, tell you what.. lets keep it nice and even

For the bomber jocks perk the B-24's

Then to make it even perk every fighter plane that can catch a B-24.

Then we will all be happy.

Apples to oranges.
As far as bombers go it's over used.
Care to speak on that or do just want to keep spinning?

Bronk

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Bronk
It's about over use .
90% of heavy bombers seen are 24s. If HT can perk chog for over use why not the 24?

Bronk

No 90% of bombers seen are not B-24's.  Many buff drivers fly Lancs because they want that 14K bomb load --- never mind it's slow and has very poor defensive fire.  They use them for heavy loads on what are usually suicide missions.... because bomber perk are worthless with current plane set.  Also why you will find serious B-24 drivers up higher, and Lancs down low more often than not.

The B-24 was the most produced bomber of the war, the C-Hog was a subset of the F4U Vought Corsair, which total production numbers for all varieties falls in overall rank to 23rd.

As to "over use" in game, the IL-2 and Yak and Ju-88 are "under-represented" and Lanc and Me 110 and maybe B-17's are "over-represented", and Niki way way (way) "overrepresented" in the game (the N1K1 barely makes top 100, our in-game N1K2 only 415 produced).

Oddly, the La-Las and Spits are probably not too far over average in-game representation.

Bombers altogether are "underrepresented" as compared to fighters in game.  That's because it *is* a game, and the emphasis is on combat.

Rank__Make & Model______Total________Produ cers_______Type
1 Ilyushin Il-2  36,136   USSR  Single-engined ground-attack aircraft
2 Yakovlev Yak-1/Yak-3/Yak-7/Yak-9 34,547 USSR Single-engined fighter. Some fighter-bombers & fighter-trainers
3 Messerschmitt Bf 109 33,436 Germany, Hungary Single-engined fighter. Some reconnaissance
4 Lavochkin LaGG-3/La-5/La-7 22,201 USSR Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
5 Polikarpov U-2/Po-2 22,000 USSR Single-engined biplane trainer, utility & harassment bomber
6 Supermarine Spitfire 21,959 Great Britain Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber. Some reconnaissance
7 Focke-Wulf Fw 190 20,001 Germany Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
8 Consolidated B-24 Liberator/PB4Y Privateer 19,264 USA
Four-engined strategic bomber & patrol aircraft. Some transports.
9 North American AT-6 Texan/Harvard 18,650 USA, Canada, Australia, Japan Single-engined trainer
10 Republic P-47 Thunderbolt 15,683 USA Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
11 North American P-51 Mustang 15,576 USA Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber. Some reconnaissance
12 Junkeres Ju 88 15,018 Germany Twin-engined bomber, fighter & reconnaissance aircraft
13 Hawker Hurricane 13,849 Great Britain, Canada Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
14 Curtis P-40 Warhawk 13,378 USA Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
15 Douglas C-47 Dakota 13,140 USA, USSR, Japan Twin-engined transport
16 Bell P-39 Airacobra/P-63 Kingcobra 12,897 USA, Russia  Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
17 Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress 12,731 USA Four-engined strategic bomber
18 Grumman F6F Hellcat 12,275 USA Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber. Some reconnaissance
19 Vultee BT-17/19 Valiant 11,525 USA Single-engined trainer
20 Petlyakov Pe-2 11,427 USSR Twin-engined light bomber
21 Mitsubishi A6M Zero 11,320 Japan Single-engined fighter. Some trainers
22 Vickers Wellington 11,302 Great Britain Twin-engined strategic bomber & patrol aircraft
23 Vought F4U Corsair 11,071 USA Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
24 Avro Anson 10,302 Great Britain, Canada Twin-engined trainer & light transport
25 Lockheed P-38 Lightning 10.036 USA Twin-engined fighter, fighter-bomber & reconnaissance aircraft
26 Grumman TBM Avenger 9,836 USA Single-engined bomber & patrol aircraft
27 North American B-25 Mitchell 9,816 USA Twin-engined medium bomber
28 Boeing/Stearman Model 75 9,746 USA Single-engined biplane trainer
29 Beech Model 18 9,100 USA Twin-engined trainer & light transport
30 Airspeed Oxford 7,986 Great Britain Twin-engined trainer & light transport
31 De Havilland Tiger Moth 7,915 Great britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand Single-engined biplane trainer
32 Grumman F4F/FM Wildcat 7,808 USA Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
33 De Havilland Mosquito 7,801 Great Britain, Canada, Australia Twin-engined fighter, bomber & reconnaissance aircraft
34 Fairchild Cornell 7,742 USA, Canada Single-engined trainer
35 Douglas A-20 Havoc 7,386 USA Twin-engined light bomber & fighter
36 Avro Lancaster 7,377 Great Britain, Canada Four-engined strategic bomber
37 Curtis SB2C Helldiver 7,200 USA, Canada Single-engined light bomber
38 Lockheed Hudson/Lodestar/Ventura/Harpoon 6,695 USA, Japan Twin-engined patrol & transport aircraft
39 Junkers Ju 87 6,363 Germany Single-engined light bomber
40 Bristol Beaufighter 5,949 Great Britain, Australia Twin-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
41 Handley Page Halifax 5,946 Great Britain Four-engined strategic bomber & patrol aircraft. Some transports
42 Douglas SBD Dauntless 5,937 USA Single-engined light bomber
43 Messerschmitt Bf 110 5,913 Germany Twin-engined fighter and fighter-bomber
44 Nakajima Ki 43 Hayabusa 5,906 Japan Single-engined fighter
45 Yakovlev UT-2 5,743 USSR Single-engined trainer 46 Bristol Blenheim 5,694 Great Britain, Canada Twin-engined light bomber & fighter
47 Piper L-4 Grasshopper 5,611 USA Single-engined observation & utility aircraft
48 Heinkel He 111 5,571 Germany Twin-engined medium bomber
49 Yokosuka K5Y 5,320 Japan Single-engined biplane trainer
50 Ilyushin Il-4 5,256 USSR Single-engined ground-attack aircraft
51 Miles Master/Martinet 5,042 Great Britain Single-engined trainer & target tug
52 Cessna T-50 4,850 USA Twin-engined trainer & light tyransport
53 Martin B-26 Marauder 4,683 USA Twin-engined medium bomber
54 Hawker Typhoon/Tempest 4,230 USSR Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
55 Boeing b-29 Superfortress 3,960
56 Polikarpov I-16 3,644 USSR Single-engined fighter
57 Nakajima Ki 84 Hayate 3,514 Japan Single-engined fighter and fighter-bomber
58 Polikarpov I-153 3,437 USSR Single-engined biplane fighter
59 Arado Ar 96 3,400 Germany, Czechoslovakia Single-engined trainer
60 Curtis C-46 Commando 3,341 USA Twin-engined transport
61 Consolidated PBY Catalina 3,290 USA, Canada Twin-engined patrol flying boat
62 Stinson L-5 Sentinel 3,289 USA Single-engined observation & utility aircraft
63 Junkers Ju 52 3,239 Germany, France Three-engined transport
64 Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-1/MiG-3 3,220 USSR Single-engined fighter
65 Taylorcraft Auster 3,204 USA, Great Britain Single-engined observation & utility aircraft
66 Kawasaki Ki 61 Hien/Ki 100 3,199 Japan Single-engined fighter
67 Nakajima Ki 27 2,999 Japan Single-engined fighter
68 Bucker Bu 181 2,689 Germany, Netherlands Single-engined trainer
69 Macchi MC.200/202/205 2,644 Italy Single-engined fighter
70 Bucker Bu 131 2,616 Germany, Japan, Czechoslovakia Single-engined biplane trainer
71 Fairey Barracuda 2,602 Great Britain Single-engined light bomber
72 Fiesler Fi 156 Storch 2,530 Germany Single-engined observation & utility aircraft
73 Ilyushin Il-10 2,466 USSR Single-engined ground-attack aircraft
74 Douglas A-26 Invader 2,450 USA Twin-engined medium bomber & attack aircraft
75 Mitsubishi G4M 2,414 Japan Twin-engined medium bomber. Some transports
76 Mitsubishi Ki 51 2,385 Japan Single-engined ground-attack aircraft
77 Short Stirling 2,371 Great Britain Four-engined strategic aircraft
78 Tachikawa Ki 9 2,315 Japan Single-engined biplane trainer
79 Fairey Swordfish 2,133 Great Britain Single-engined light bomber & patrol aircraft
80 Bristol Beaufort 2,129 Great Britain Twin-engined medium bomber
81 Yokosuka D4Y Suisei 2,038 Japan Single-engined light bomber
82 Mitsubishi Ki 21 1,981 Japan Twin-engined medium bomber
83 Kawasaki Ki 48 1,968 Japan Twin-engined medium bomber
84 Culver PQ-14 1,967 USA Single-engined target aircraft
85 Vultee A-31 Vengeance 1,931 USA Single-engined light bomber
86 Fiat C.R.42 1,781 Italy Single-engined biplane fighter
87 Mitsubishi Ki 46 1,742 Japan Twin-engined reconnaissance aircraft. Some fighters
88 Dornier Do 217 1,730 Germany Twin-engined medium bomber & heavy fighter
89 Kawasaki Ki 45 1,701 Japan Twin-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
90 Tupolev SB-2 1,656 USSR Twin-engined medium bomber
91 Fairey Battle 1,650 Great Britain Single-engined light bomber
92 Armstrong Whitworth Whitley 1,614 Great Britain Twin-engined medium bomber
93 Martin 187 Baltimore 1,575 USA Twin-engined medium bomber
94 Dornier Do 17/215 1,564 Germany Twin-engined medium bomber
95 Westland Lysander 1,559 Great Britain, Canada Single-engined army cooperation aircraft
96 Vought OS2U Kingfisher 1,519 USA Single-engined utility floatplane
97 Caproni Ca309-316 1,480 Italy Twin-engined transport & light bomber
98 Messerschmitt Me 262 1,453 Germany Twin-engined jet fighter & fighter-bomber
99 Kawasaki N1K1 Shiden 1,430 Japan Single-engined fighter
100 Curtis P-36 Hawk 1,424  USA  Single-engined fighter

[Krusty]

Originally posted by tedrbr
No 90% of bombers seen are not B-24's.  Many buff drivers fly Lancs because they want that 14K bomb load --- never mind it's slow and has very poor defensive fire.  They use them for heavy loads on what are usually suicide missions.... because bomber perk are worthless with current plane set.  Also why you will find serious B-24 drivers up higher, and Lancs down low more often than not.

Okay let's consider that for a second. You say lancs are more common. Maybe that's just what you see. These are from last tour.

Tedrbr
Bomber KillsOf
B-17G 0
B-24J 2
B-26B 4
Lancaster III 12

Bronk
B-17G 10
B-24J 41
B-26B 11
Lancaster III 11

Krusty1
B-17G 10
B-24J 44
B-26B 8
Lancaster III 20

Skycaptn
B-17G 1
B-24J 15
B-26B 7
Lancaster III 4

That's just the 4 of us discussing this. You (Ted) seem to be the minority. Perhaps you don't engage bombers. Or perhaps you don't find it worth the effort (I have run across MANY pilots that "don't do" bombers because they can get 5 fighter kills in the time it takes to get 1 bomber). [Edit: I'm not trying to make a crack or anything, just trying to guess why you dont' see many B-24s] Whatever the reason, you seem to have an atypical cross-section of kills. For almost everybody else B24s top the list by a LARGE multiplier.

For every tour since B24s have been introduced, the aircraft I have most kills of usually is the B-24. And it's usually by a wide margin.

As for altitude, I find the opposite. B24s are more than capable of defending themselves against any aircraft fast enough to catch them. They are more likely to be 10k or lower. Lancasters, much more vulnerable, are more likely to come in at 30K (and yes, I have chased many Lancs at 30K for over 3 sectors before). Just last night we had Lancs at 20k taking out Knit HQ in LW Orange. We also had 5k B24s and 2k B17s hitting fields. The more capable bombers usually go right into the thick of it, because they can make it through, whereas lancasters cannot do this and need the safety of alt. This is a generalization, and you'll find high B24s and high B17s, and low lancs as well. However I often find the B24s are more willing to come in "low" (10k) than lancs are.

Originally posted by tedrbr
The B-24 was the most produced bomber of the war

Sure, and it (along with the B17) was shot down in such large numbers that pilots and crews were in short supply. It was shot down so often the 8th AF suspended daylight bombing missions over Europe. It was so vulnerable that pilots preferred the B17 to the 24, because the 17 would get you home but the B24 would force you to bail.

Oh, and in WW2 they flew at 160mph, not 270 (faster than some late-war fighter cruise speeds).

So in the context of this game, and in how it's used in this game the B-24 is by far the most common and most capable bomber. By a long shot. Seeing as we have no other good candidates for perking, it is the top of the list for a perk price. If (hypothetically) the B17 were 3x as strong and had better guns, and were used 90% of the time I'd have called for it to be perked*. However this is not the case. I hope I have explained my reasoning behind the matter.



* = Note I did call for a small perk on the B17, 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever is placed on the B-24, so we have a variety of lightly perked bombers to choose from