French Fighters

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Krusty
Hawk75.. yeah.. There's a thoroughbred right there...

Take a P40B... Remove a quarter of its horsepower. Now add a LARGE MASSIVE amount of frontal drag for the radial engine. Now put 1x 50cal and 1x 30cal in the cowling, and 2 optional 30cals in drag-inducing gondolas under the wings outboard of the landing gear. Maximum speed of 280mph at 10,000 feet. That's probably around 230 at sea level.

What drag inducing gondolas? Those 30 cals were wing mounted. And what is your source for the speed at 10k?

EDIT/And FYI, the worst documented top speed that I know for the Hawk 75A was obtained in FiAF flight testing and it was around 250mph. The normal result is 267mph/EDIT

[Vespasiano]

The maximum speed was 300mph for the H-75A-1, near 500km/h, 310mph for the A-2.

And it was 330mph for the Dewoitine D520

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The following thirty-nine were serialled CU-551 to CU-589. Some of the serials had a small subscript w, such as the aircraft I have modeled, after the CU. This indicated that the aircraft have been either refitted or repaired at the Finnish Aircraft Service Factory VL (Valtion Lentokonetehdas).

The subscript w (and c) actually came from the fact that we had Hawks with both engines, Cyclones and Twin Wasps. So the first letters from the engine names were added as subscripts for practical reasons (book keeping, etc.). After it was found that Cyclones overheated very easily in certain maneuvers and were getting damaged the Cyclones were used in the Brewsters.

After all the Cyclone-Hawks had had their engines changed to Twin Wasps the subscript letters were over painted as they didn't have any use any more. Allthough Cyclone had its problems the Curtiss-pilots sure weren't happy to lose the 30mph top speed advantage the Cyclone-Curtiss enjoyed over the Twin Wasp engined Hawk.

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Vespasiano
That's obvious that they didn't have an important role during WWII... but D520 was also used by Vichy's government (bad part of our history I agree) in North Africa against the allied aviation, then some were used by free french forces, even at this time they were not so old.
Ms-406 and H75 are in Il-2, but they were not made to be used as french fighters, we have to change the skins, and there is still not Dewoitine.

Yak-1 should be an intersting plane too, the first one used by the french squadron "Normandie Niemen"



ps : just about what is written in your signature :
"The 1st engined flight was made by Richard Pearse, Waitohi, New Zealand, March 31, 1902, May 11, 1903 1st 1000yard+ flight, Karl Jatho, 18.August 1903, Hannover - Vahrenheide. In November he reached already 60m distances. The Wright 'Flyer 1' made its 1st flight(36m) at 17. December 1903!"

That's wrong, I know he is not really known in other continents, but the first engined flight was made by Clément Ader in 1890, who invented the name "avion", meaning "plane", used in french, in italian, in spanish and some other european languages. This is too the origin of the world "aviation" you are also using yourselves.

Hi,

afaik Clément Ader made the 1st non controlled flight with a engine powered vehicle heavyer than air and he crashed while that, but thats different to what the Wrights still claim they was the 1st.
The Wrights claim to be the 1st, who made a controlled, powered flight, with a vehicle heaveyer than air.
At least Karl Jatho made real controlled flights, before the Wrights.

Nevertheless, i always would count Clément Ader in the same line like Otto Lilienthal, a real pioneer.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Vespasiano]

Yes, I see what you want to say, it's true that it is difficult to say what exactly was a plane or not...  thanks for the information about Karl Jatho, I didn't know this man.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Krusty
Hawk75.. yeah.. There's a thoroughbred right there...

Take a P40B... Remove a quarter of its horsepower. Now add a LARGE MASSIVE amount of frontal drag for the radial engine. Now put 1x 50cal and 1x 30cal in the cowling, and 2 optional 30cals in drag-inducing gondolas under the wings outboard of the landing gear. Maximum speed of 280mph at 10,000 feet. That's probably around 230 at sea level.
 

I see it rated at 525km/h at 5200m and 529 km/h at 6000 m on different sites, that makes around 320mph at 16k. The plane was regarded as very maneuvrable but short on 20mm ammo as said before.

It would be a great early war ride.

(add the Yak-1 for late war)

Straffo : On te voit plus sur le forum que online dit moi ^^
   
Vespasiano : regarde tes PM's

[wstpt10]

Er, Yak-1 for late war? That was a very early model of that line, you must mean the Yak-3.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Krusty
edit: just reworded a line or two for clarification.

Milo I've got a book that splits the hawk 75 into a completely different write-up from the P-36. It mentions that the french ordered and received aircraft under the P-36s entry, but that the Hawk 75 was only used by a few countries (Argentina, China, Thailand).

It does say first printed 1982... So it could have a piece or two of bad info. It just makes an effort to distinguish the two types. It does seem to lump "Hawk 75A" in with "P-36," and separates "Hawk 75" (no "A") as a different category.

It does mention, however, that the majority of the Hawk 75As were diverted to UK as France had fallen. Not sure how many actually made it to France before this point.

Hawk 75A-1
This initial production version from the first contract was designated Hawk 75A-1 by Curtiss. According to the original plan, the majority of the Hawk 75A-1s were to be shipped by Curtiss in disassembled form to France, with assembly being completed in France by SNCAC at Bourges. The first Hawk 75A-1 was flown at Buffalo early in December 1938. The first Hawk 75A-1s were delivered by ship to France on December 14, 1938. Fourteen more Hawk 75A-1s were delivered in fully-assembled form for Armée de l'Air trials, but the rest were delivered in disassembled form. The first assembly was commenced by SNCAC in February 1939.

The Hawk 75A-1 was powered by the Pratt & Whitney R-1830-SC-G engine, offering 950 hp for takeoff. Armament comprised four 7.5 mm machine guns, two mounted in the upper decking of the fuselage nose and two in the wings. All instruments (apart from the altitude indicator) were metric calibrated. A modified seat was fitted to accommodate the French Lemercier back parachute. The throttles operated according to the French standard, i.e. in the direction reverse to the throttles of British or US aircraft. France adopted the manufacturer's number as the official serial number, so the aircraft of this series received Nos. 01 - 100.

During March and April of 1939, the 4e and 5e Escadres de Chasse had initiated conversion from the Dewoitine 500 and 501, and by July 1, 1939 the 4e Escadre had 54 Curtiss fighters on strength and the 5e Escadre had 41. The conversion had not been without problems, one Hawk 75A-1 having crash- landed when an over-speeding propeller had caused the engine to overheat, and another one had been destroyed in a fatal crash as a result of a flat spin that developed during aerobatic trials with full fuel tanks. Throughout the entire service history of the Hawk 75A, there were problems with manoeuvrability and handling when all the fuel tanks were completely full.

Hawk 75A-2
Following the placing of the initial French order for the Hawk 75A in May of 1938, an option had been taken for 100 more machines. This option was converted into a firm order on March 8, 1939. These aircraft differed from the A-1 in having an additional 7.5 mm machine gun in each wing bringing the total firepower to six guns, some structural reinforcement of the rear fuselage, and the minor modifications necessary to permit interchange between the R-1830-SC-G and the more powerful R-1830-SC2-G, the latter affording 1050 hp for takeoff.

The new model was designated Hawk 75A-2 by Curtiss. The first A-2 was delivered to France at the end of May, 1939. The first 40 of these were basically similar to the A-1 in both powerplant and armament. The first A-2 to have both the uprated engine and the increased armament was actually the 48th off the Buffalo line. French Air Force numbering continued from the Hawk 75A-1, the first Hawk 75A-2 being numbered 101.

Hawk 75A-3
Additional 135 of the Hawk 75A-3 version were ordered by France on October 9, 1939, with improved 1200 hp R-1830-S1C3G engines and armament equal to that of the A-2. About sixty aircraft of this model reached France before the surrender, with the rest being diverted to Britain.

Hawk 75A-4
The last French order before the Armistice was for 395 Hawk 75A-4 aircraft. These were armed like the A-3s but were fitted with 1200 hp Wright R-1820-G205A Cyclone engines. Cyclone-powered 75s can be easily distinguished from Twin Wasp models by the short-chord cowling of greater diameter, the absence of engine cowling flaps and bulbous nose gun port covers.  

Only two hundred and eighty-four of these A-4s were actually built, and of these, only six A-4s actually reached France before the surrender.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by wstpt10


The P-38s are 38Fs. The French purchased a number of them as the Lockheed 322-15, but none were delivered in time.

They were called the Model 322F and Model 322B for the British.  These models were also known as the "Castrated P-38s" because they lacked counter rotating engines and turbochargers.  

As you mentioned, the French never received theirs and the British got them instead.  They didn't like them, so they gave them back and the US refitted them and redesignated them the P-322 and were used in various flight training roles and fight testing experiments.

Find it kind of funny that WW2OL would give a plane (P-38F) the French never ordered or flew.  

Does WW2OL at least model the French P-38 without the counter rotating engines and turbocharger?


ack-ack

[E25280]

Originally posted by Vespasiano
Hello All,

I'm a french student, impassioned by aviation, I am playing to AH since last year, and I would like to know why french Fighters are always forgotten in flight games, AH, Flight Simulator, Il-2...

We often see some people saying that they were bad planes, not really powerfull, but do you know these ones ?

Dewoitine D-520 : Best french fighter, some great Aces, for example Pierre le Gloan, who shot down 5 Fiat Cr-42 in the same day

Curtiss "Hawk" 75 : Version of the american Curtiss P-36 for the french armée de l'air, it was not well armed, but it was a great fighter, even against Messerschmitt Bf-109, with many victories in dogfight.

Arsenal Vg-33 : It was only a prototype because of the end of the war in France in 1940, but it was a really great plane, as powerfull than the first Spitfire or Messerschmitt...

There were also Morane-Saulnier 406 and Bloch 152, but they were less efficient against Luftwaffe.

We know that the french aviation hasn't taken part to a great period of the war, but our pilots fought well with these great planes, so why not to add them in a game ? I'm sure many people in France and even in other countries should be intersting in flying these aircrafts.

See you soon.

Part of my initial frustration with the arena split was that the early war plane set in AH is very limited.

ANY addition to the EW planeset would be welcome.  These would be a great place to start IMO.

[wstpt10]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They were called the Model 322F and Model 322B for the British.  These models were also known as the "Castrated P-38s" because they lacked counter rotating engines and turbochargers.  

As you mentioned, the French never received theirs and the British got them instead.  They didn't like them, so they gave them back and the US refitted them and redesignated them the P-322 and were used in various flight training roles and fight testing experiments.

Find it kind of funny that WW2OL would give a plane (P-38F) the French never ordered or flew.  

Does WW2OL at least model the French P-38 without the counter rotating engines and turbocharger?


ack-ack

The problem with WWIIOL is that it tries to model things that naver came to be, such as the French staying in the war. In order to do this, they use American equipment for the later tiers (one tier represents a period of the war, they can be slowed down by stragetic bombing of factories, and they last about 8 days). So you see French M4A2s, M10s, P-38s, M3A3s, etc...

To be honest, I don't know much about the AdA rides in that game after the D.520 stops being the premier fighter for that air force (H.81 and P-39 take its place). I'm more of an RAF guy.

Though I do know that yes, they did model the correct P-38s. They lack the turbochargers and counter-rotating engines.

Which would be why my ride of choice when the Axis players get the 190A is the Spitfire IX, not the 322.

Most WWIIOL players call the 322 a P-38F for two reasons.
One, when the Americans are added, probably sometime this year, it will be reskinned and recoded as the P-38F. Second, it looks like one.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Noir

Straffo : On te voit plus sur le forum que online dit moi ^^
   
 

Too much work currently + I got sick during 2 week (40° fever during almost a week) + rotator cuff painfull again ...

Yeah I only fly on the forum

I expect to be again operational mid march.

[Bruv119]

If the italians get 2 planes I don't see why the french shouldnt get 1.

Add the dewotine thing.

[Krusty]

The Polish built their own aircraft as well. So did the Nordic countries. Doesn't mean they played an important role in the large-scale scheme of the war. D.520 may have been "up to par" for 1939, but it was also rare. Most French aircraft were underpowered and outclassed by even the poorest of US rides at the time. At least they weren't open-cockpit biplanes like RAF and Italian forces used.

And the reason the Italians have aircraft in this game is, I think, because they played a major role in several theaters of the conflict.

[Karnak]

D.520 was "up to par" for 1940, not 1939.  And we have rarer aircraft already in AH.