Author Topic: French Fighters  (Read 9732 times)

Offline quintv

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« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2007, 03:25:37 PM »
I support the D.520 =)

Fits in completely with the Spit.Ia, Bf.109E4, etc. early war set.:aok :aok

*I play wwiiol often so I have alot of stick time in it, fun plane,not  much power but its got roll and maneuverability to spare.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 03:30:15 PM by quintv »

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2007, 03:31:18 PM »
<-------

That is all.

Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2007, 03:33:29 PM »
Go flamebait elsewhere, bronk. I hear the BKs are doing something, you might wanna go hump furball's leg or something.

Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.

Offline quintv

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« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2007, 03:57:55 PM »
I support adding the Kingcobra as well,

sounds like a fun plane :aok

Offline Vespasiano

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« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2007, 04:01:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.



I disagree with what you said, for two reasons :

-- The D520 was also used by Vichy forces in North Africa, for example during the operation "Torch", so it had also a small impact at this time, it was nearly the only aircraft used in North Africa (ms406 also but it was less used after 1940)
Occupation stripes were painted on the D520, even if it was for a pro-fascist government I think it was beautiful :

(c) Wings Palette
It was also used by free french forces after liberation of Morocco and Tunisia by allied troops. It had not an impact as other famous fighters, but it played a role for several years.

(c) Wings Palette

--Obviously the Ms-406 is more representative of the Battle for France, but as we see how you are criticising the performances of the D-520, it is not possible to imagine being asking for the Morane Saulnier 406. :)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 05:05:57 PM by Vespasiano »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2007, 04:38:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Actually your argument is flawed...

I never mentioned the Ta152, of which many hundreds were built (regardless of how many got to the front lines). Nor did I compare rare perk planes to common, planeset-hole-filling-suggestions.

Gee... Argentina made some aircraft as well! They MUST be in the next update, because they were SO vital to the war's outcome, right?

Right? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Many hundred ? holly crap you failed math class too :D

Quote

Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.


What was the impact of the F4U4 or me262 ? in the case of the later as the german lost...

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2007, 04:42:32 PM »
typos happen. I am the typo king.

And like I said, quit comparing perk planes to a hole-filling-request-plane. They're asking to fill a hole (lack of French planes), and you're comparing it to rare, barely-saw-combat perk planes. Better to compare it to a P40E, or a P51D, as these were staples of the war.


Mind you, I don't think that hole in the planeset needs filling any more than we need 5 more spit variants. That's just my opinion, though.

Offline TwinBoom

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« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2007, 04:46:42 PM »
krusty u are so wrong about the d.520 ur conclusions are a joke


now krusty open ur eyes and read this info again
Development
Design of the Dewoitine 520 started in November 1936 at the private design firm led by Emile Dewoitine. Trying to address problems in earlier designs, he created a fighter using only the latest techniques and engines. The new design was to be able to reach 520 km/h and became known as the "520". Only months later the firm was conglomerated into one of a number of design-and-manufacturing pools, in this case SNCAM. Still known as the D.520, work on the design continued at the new company.

The prototype D.520 flew on October 2, 1938, powered by the new 890 hp (660 kW) Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 liquid-cooled engine. The plane managed to reach only 480 km/h in flight tests, much slower than expected. Most of the problem seemed to come from greater than expected drag from the underwing radiators, so these were merged into a single radiator under the fuselage. After minor damage in a landing accident the engine was changed to a newer -29 and included exhaust ejectors for added thrust, along with an adjustable prop. These changes were enough to allow the plane to reach its design speed.

The prototype was followed in 1939 with two airframes with a new sliding canopy and a larger tail unit. These were armed with a 20 mm cannon firing through the propeller spinner (a feature later found on many German and Russian designs) and two 7.5 mm machine guns in small pods under the wing. The third also included a small tail-wheel instead of the original skid. Flight tests went fairly well and a contract for 200 production machines to be powered by the newer -31 engine (later replaced by the -45) was issued in March of 1939. A contract for an additional 600 planes was issued in June reduced to 510 in July.

With the outbreak of war a new contract brought the total to 1280, with the production rate to be 200 machines per month from May 1940. The Aéronautique navale then ordered 120. Another Armée de l'air order in April 1940 brought the total to 2250 and increased quotas to 350 a month.

The first production D.520 flew in November, powered by the 830 hp (620 kW) 12Y-31 and armed with two 7.5 mm machine guns in housings underneath the wings. It had a curved, one-piece windshield and a sliding canopy. The rest of the production machines were delivered with the 930 hp (690 kW) 12Y-45 engine with a new supercharger and a Ratier 3-bladed propeller (a few had the -49 of 910 hp (680 kW)). They were armed with a Hispano-Suiza 404 20 mm cannon firing through the propeller hub and four MAC 1934 7.5 mm machine guns in the wings. The curved, one-piece windshield from the prototypes was replaced with one containing an optically flat panel.

As the first batch of machines rolled out of the production lines, they were found to fail acceptance tests with insufficient top speed and troublesome cooling. Redesigned compressor intakes, a modified cooling circuit and propulsive exhaust pipes proved to be effective remedies for these shortcomings, but as early examples had to be retrofitted with those improvements, the type was not declared combat-worthy until April.
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Offline TwinBoom

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« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2007, 04:47:15 PM »
Operational service

 Battle of France
The Groupe de Chasse I/3 was the first unit to get the D.520, receiving its first planes in January of 1940. These were unarmed and used for training. In April and May they received 34 production machines, which proved to be very popular with the pilots. In tests against a captured Bf 109E-3 (which didn't develop full power) the D.520 proved to be 20 km/h slower, but had better high speed manoeuvrability. The D.520 matched the turning circle of the Bf 109 but displayed nasty departure characteristics, spinning out of the turn repeatedly during the tests while the Bf 109 owing to its slats could sustain the turn on the edge of the stall easily.

When Germany invaded France and the Low Countries on May 10, 228 D.520s had been manufactured, but the Armée de l'Air had only accepted 75, as most others had been sent back to the factory to be retrofitted to the new standard. As a result, only GC I/3 was fully equipped with the D.520, with 36 planes. They met the Luftwaffe on May 13, shooting down three Henschel Hs 126s and one Heinkel He 111 without loss. GC II/3, GC III/3, GC III/6 and GC II/7 later completed their conversion to the D.520 and all took part in the Battle of France. A naval unit, the 1st Flotille de Chasse, was also equipped with the D.520. GC II/6 and GC III/7 converted to the D.520 but too late to see action.

By the time of the armistice at the end of June, 437 D.520's had been built and 351 of these had been delivered. In that time they had 108 confirmed kills and 39 probables, losing 54 to enemy action. As French resistance collapsed in the middle of June, GC I/3, II/3, III/3, III/6 and II/7 flew their aircraft to Algeria. Three more, from GC III/7, escaped to Britain and 153 machines remained in France.

Under Vichy
In April 1941 production was started again and in June, 550 were ordered to replace all other single-seat fighters. The plan was to have the D.520 eventually equip a total of 17 Groupes with 442 aircraft, three Aéronavale escadrilles with 37 aircraft each plus 3 training units with 13 aircraft. As per terms of the Armistice with Germany, all improvements were prohibited and planes of the new batch were similar with the ones manufactured one year earlier.

D.520s of GC III/6, II/3 and naval escadrille 1AC faced the allies during the Syria-Lebanon campaign in 1941, where they claimed 31 kills over British and Australian planes, while losing 11 of their own in air combat and 24 to AAA, accidents, and attacks on their airfields.

During Operation Torch, GC III/3 (who was really GC I/3 renamed, as the previous unit with this designation had been disbanded) opposed the Allies over Oran, while Flottile 1F saw some action versus the US Navy over Casablanca. Many planes were destroyed on the ground.


Late and postwar service
In December 1942, as French forces formerly under Vichy had sided with the Allies, there were 153 D.520s left in French hands in North Africa. They flew a few patrols during the Battle of Tunisia, but were considered obsolete, and their radio sets were incompatible with Allied equipment. From early 1943 on, they were relegated to training duties at the fighter school in Meknes, and progressively replaced by Spitfires and P-39s in combat units.

During the liberation of France, a few examples abandoned by the Germans were used by ad hoc units in ground attacks against the isolated German pockets of resistance on the Western coast.

Postwar, those that remained in France were used as trainers, serving in this role until 1953.


Foreign users
As the German forces invaded Vichy's so-called "free zone" in November 1942, they captured 246 D.520s; additionally, a new batch of 130 was built under German occupation. Some were used by the Luftwaffe for training purposes. The Germans also transferred 120 D.520s to Bulgaria and 60 to Italy.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 04:50:20 PM by TwinBoom »
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Offline TwinBoom

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« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2007, 04:48:08 PM »
Foreign users
As the German forces invaded Vichy's so-called "free zone" in November 1942, they captured 246 D.520s; additionally, a new batch of 130 was built under German occupation. Some were used by the Luftwaffe for training purposes. The Germans also transferred 120 D.520s to Bulgaria and 60 to Italy.


 Variants
D.521 Hispano-Suiza engine replaced by a Rolls-Royce Merlin, one example built, project cancelled.
D.523 engine upgraded to the 1,100 hp-12Y51 variant. Prototype was on trials in June 1940. Development halted by the armistice.
D.520 DC postwar two-seater conversion.

 Markings
Apart from the first prototype and postwar examples, D.520s sported the usual French camouflage of dark blue-grey, khaki, and dark brown with light blue-grey undersurfaces. The camouflage pattern was not standardized. The national markings were the standard light blue-white-red roundels on the wingtips, as well as on the rear fuselage, and the rudder flag.

Specific markings were applied during the Vichy era, consisting in white outlined fuselage roundels with a white fuselage stripe, and from mid-1941 on, the infamous "slave's pajamas" with red and yellow stripes on the engine cowling and tail surfaces.


 Preserved examples
Dewoitine D.520 n°408 was restored to flying condition in the 1970s. Painted as n°90 used by the GC I/3 in 1940, it performed at various airshows in Europe, but was destroyed in a fatal crash in 1986. The three remaining D.520s known to exist today are:

n°862 is currently on display at the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace. It has been repainted as n°277 used by GC III/6 in June 1940.
n°603 is on display at the Conservatoire de l'air et de l'espace d'Aquitaine in Bordeaux-Mérignac.
n°655 is being restored at the naval museum in Rochefort.

Operators
 Bulgaria
 France
 Germany: Luftwaffe
 Italy
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Offline TwinBoom

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« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2007, 04:48:52 PM »
Specifications (Dewoitine D.520C.1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 8.6 m (28 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 10.2 m (33 ft 6 in)
Height: 2.57 m (8 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 15.97 m² (172 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,036 kg (4,489 lb)
Loaded weight: 2,676 kg (5,900 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 2,780 kg (6,129 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45 liquid-cooled V12 engine, 690 kW (930 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 535 km/h (289 knots, 332 mph)
Range: 1,250 km (675 nm, 777 mi)
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (33,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 14.3 m/s (2,820 ft/min)
Wing loading: 167 kg/m² (34.2 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 257 W/kg (0.156 hp/lb)
Armament
Guns:

1× 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon
4× 7.5 mm (0.295 in) machine guns

 References
Danel, R.; Cuny, J.. Docavia n°4: le Dewoitine D.520. Editions Larivière.  
Ehrengardt, C. (2004). Les avions français au combat: le Dewoitine D.520. Aéro-Editions.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2007, 04:58:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
typos happen. I am the typo king.

And like I said, quit comparing perk planes to a hole-filling-request-plane. They're asking to fill a hole (lack of French planes), and you're comparing it to rare, barely-saw-combat perk planes. Better to compare it to a P40E, or a P51D, as these were staples of the war.


Mind you, I don't think that hole in the planeset needs filling any more than we need 5 more spit variants. That's just my opinion, though.



You can have this opinion , my opinion is not just jingoism as I love all pretty planes (well some more than others :)) and I think the D520 will be a good addition mostly because of that.

Btw I think a Yak3 would find more use in AH than a D520 ,as a D520 would be usefull only in a Storch scenario.

Offline wstpt10

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« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2007, 05:09:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by quintv
I support the D.520 =)

Fits in completely with the Spit.Ia, Bf.109E4, etc. early war set.:aok :aok

*I play wwiiol often so I have alot of stick time in it, fun plane,not  much power but its got roll and maneuverability to spare.


Word.

Quint, I've got to catch you in game sometime...

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2007, 06:11:00 PM »
D.520 aquitted itself well against Bf109Es too, not just He111s and Ju87s.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2007, 07:05:26 PM »
Twinboom, posting the entirety of the wikipedia entry does not make you an expert, I'm afraid. [EDIT: To stave off knee-jerk responses, I'm not an expert either]

Only a handful of units had them before the battle for France was over, as compared to the thousand+ M.S.406's in operation at the time. Even wiki claims that it was 20km/h slower than a damaged, captured, underpowered 109E (and we're talking E-1 I'm guessing?). It couldn't turn sharply without spinning out nonstop, and the few that escaped by flying to N. Africa were of no use, as by the time they were incorporated into the allied forces they were obsolete by all standards. After the fall of France they were relegated to training duty by almost everybody that had them (small exceptions being a couple of very small nations that Germany exported them to -- exported them because they were too inferior to LW aircraft to bother pursuing production of).

The D.520 was the closest thing the French had to the spit/109 at the time, but that doesn't make it the equal of either. It was simply the best and most recent desing of the time, and even so, well you draw your own conclusions. Just don't rely only on wikipedia for your info, mate.