The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.

[Guppy35]

Well then I guess this uneducated American would ask HTC what his target audience is, and would have the broadest appeal to the masses.

I don't think that's a Pe-2

[JAWS2003]

They look sexy too.


Pe-2







Tu-2

[Bronk]

Originally posted by quintv
You tell someone that the vast majority of German military casualties were sustained on the Ostfront

Never said military casualties.
 I said Lives, as in guess what you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or do you think those civilian lives had NO impact ?


Bronk

[Kweassa]

Yea firestorm that creates 100 mph+ winds are a picnic.
Could you downplay that just a bit more.
Tell that to the low estimated 250k dead "picnic".
Oh and thats just 1 city on the receiving end of a "picnic".

 Imagine a Dresden bombing that lasts for 7 months when comparing with Stalingrad, and one that lasts 3 years when comparing with Leningrad. Dresden is undoubtably the singe largest bombing raid of WW2 but it lasted for two days. The Russian cities facing against three German army groups, however, were bombed constantly with no discretion towards civilian facilities whatsoever, for years.

 Dresden turned into a parking lot in the February of 1945, by which time the Soviets already had plenty of parking lots all over their entire Western border areas. 250k dead in a single day is gruesome, but add up the numbers and see in which part of Europe the Germans died by the thousands everyday for years.

 We're talking about a front in which the military disassembles entire industries and moves them by transportation, and then reassembles them in safe areas, here.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by JAWS2003
They look sexy too.

The Pe-2, at least, is quite sexy!

It's hard to get the curves and angles from the line drawings. If you can handle a scale model of it or something, you really get a feel for how sleek it is.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Bronk
Your answer to my question.
A very pointed question I might add.

Then I ask for a read of it.

I asked nothing about numbers produced. My question was how they were used.

Because
 
Is suspect, I'd say Britt and U.S. strat bombing campaign did far more damage to Germany.  In material, moral, and probably lives.
How many lives lost in Dresden alone?

So please how about that read on Russia's strat campaign.


Bronk

Are you trying to say german though the east front was not really something to worry about ?

[quintv]

Originally posted by Bronk
Never said military casualties.
 I said Lives, as in guess what you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or do you think those civilian lives had NO impact ?


Bronk

A hell of a lot less than the lives of the German soldiers and airmen.

Even if it were a 1v1 trade off I don't believe civilian casualties as a result of the strategic campaign amounted to the loss of live sustained by the Wehrmact in east.

[Kweassa]

Never said military casualties.
I said Lives, as in guess what you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or do you think those civilian lives had NO impact ?

 You don't want to talk about civilian casualties of the Eastern Front. You probably wouldn't want to talk about what the Soviets did to the German civilians on their warpath from Kursk to Berlin, either.

 The Western allies sent the Soviets vital resources. The lend-lease was absolutely neccessary for the Soviets survivng the first two years. The American bomber campaigns did have serious effects in German production (despite the fact Germans produced more resources than ever, in 1944, when the bombing campaigns were at its peak). Their offensive in Africa and in the Mediterranean was important, too. The Normandy landings did open up a 2nd 'groundwar' front which Stalin was demanding for years.

 However, again, you don't want to compare those with the Eastern front.

 Bear in mind that Donitz, after Hitler killed himself, and Germany was on the brink of collapse, wanted to treat with the Western Allies and stop the Russians, not the other way around. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who the Germans were more scared of.

[Bronk]

Bronk



EDIT: yes Kweassa you are right. we all know thats what you need to hear.

[JAWS2003]

I'm not lobying for this Russian bombers because they are my favorite or something like that.

From the list HTC posted  my favorite is Me-410 by far. But. I look at this as a chance to plug a hole in the game.
 What plane from that list would plug the biggerst hole in the game?

[whiteman]

wish i had two votes, i'm stuck between the Tu-2, Me 410  and A 26

[FrodeMk3]

Good luck trying to get past the idea ingrained in the minds of all Americans from youth that the U.S.A won the war almost single-handedly like John Wayne riding into town with a couple six shooters, saving the frightened and defenseless women of Europe (U.K/U.S.S.R) from the evil hun. You tell someone that the vast majority of German military casualties were sustained on the Ostfront and most of the time you'll run into "but... but.. but...". Europeans know better, and of course the more well informed and read Americans do, but Joe Q Public thinks Patton won teh war.

True, it was a total effort, by all the allied nations...If you take 1 of them away, you can see what happens:

BRITAIN OUT: With Germany's Western front secure, they can bring ALL of their resources to bear on the USSR, Since the U.S. will play hell trying to strike at Germany from across the Atlantic, with no Staging areas in the British Isles.

USSR OUT: Just like the no UK scenario, only this time it's in reverse, This gives the german's a very good chance to invade england, once all of their manpower, material, and industry don't have to feed two fronts.

USA OUT: without American support, such as lend lease, Industrial Raw materials, equipment, etc. The Brits are in real trouble, both at home and abroad. The soviets, whilst not recieving quite as much aid from Lend-Lease as the UK did, Still needed everything we could send them. If Britain has no help, then this scenario might rapidly turn into the BRITAIN OUT scenario, only this time Russia has no help from the US, either.

Quint, whereas I agree that Most US schools are lacking, as far as history is concercerned, It can be said that a large part of the allied victory in the Second world war was due to US involvement on the side of the allies. What really crippled the Germans was'nt the Tactical air attacks on Wermacht units on the Russian front, but the RAF Bomber command and the U.S. 8th AF's bombing campaign against Industrial germany. If that campaign had never started, Hitler's war machine could have changed the tide of the war in the east, as well.

Edit:I do know that the USSR lost 20million+ during WWII...But, as has been previously stated, That was through alot of ineptness on both Stalin's part, and that of his General Staff(Those who had survived the purges of the '30's,) and also through German policies on how both prisoners and subjugated territories were treated.(the Gestapo rounded up Jews wherever they could.)

[VWE]

That's because the Germans knew the Russians, like themselves had no soul...

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Krusty
Jaws, how many Yaks were made?

How many LAs?

How many IL2s?

Out of the ENTIRE Soviet airforce (both lend-lease AND home-built), how many airframes served in WW2, for the Soviet Union?

And, what percent of that many hundreds of thousands is made up by 11,000 Pe-2s?

I compiled production numbers for all the higher-production-number aircraft.

Here's the list of the Russian ones.  It isn't a perfect list, but gives a good idea of relative numbers.  If anyone wants to post additions or corrections to it, please also site your source.

---- RUSSIA ----

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_..._
the_CIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2C_World_War_II
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90..._roosevelt.html

Yak-9, 16769
La-5, 9920
I-16, 9004
Yak-1, 8720
Yak-7, 6339
LaGG-3, 6258
La-7, 5753
P-39, 5007 (from US)
Yak-3, 4848
MiG-3, 3120
Hurricane, 2952 (from UK)
P-63, 2421 (from US)
Spitfire, 1331 (from UK)

Il-2, 29937

Pe-2, 11427
SB-2, 6656
Il-4, 5256
A-20, 2700 (from US)
Tu-2, 2527
DB-3, 1528

[quintv]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3

 What really crippled the Germans was'nt the Tactical air attacks on Wermacht units on the Russian front, but the RAF Bomber command and the U.S. 8th AF's bombing campaign against Industrial germany. If that campaign had never started, Hitler's war machine could have changed the tide of the war in the east, as well.
 

It would be hard to argue against the strat bombing campaign and the swarm of aircraft the U.S was able to throw into the meat grinder over Germany.

If you are comparing the U.S/U.K strat effort against the Red Army's  effort  though and saying the former was more decisive, thats simply not a sustainable argument in any way.

Edit: I guess this is off-topic though, a different dicussion really. The Pe and Tu 2 should definately see the light of day sometime.