Author Topic: The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.  (Read 3295 times)

Offline Brooke

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2007, 02:02:40 PM »
I'd like to see aircraft added to Aces High in order of how much they were used in WWII (production numbers are a good analog for that) and for rounding out plane sets for special events.

Nevertheless, whatever is picked, I'll be happy, as it is one more plane in Aces High.

Offline Kweassa

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2007, 02:07:34 PM »
Quote
Quint, whereas I agree that Most US schools are lacking, as far as history is concercerned, It can be said that a large part of the allied victory in the Second world war was due to US involvement on the side of the allies.


 True, it was a large effort.

 But the problem is many Americans have a tendency to think the Allied were losing the war until the US entered the stage and turned the tide for them. What really happened was by the time US entered the stage in ETO the Russians were on the comeback, organized the largest counter-offensive of modern military warfare upto that point of history, made mincemeat out of two of the three army groups that invaded Russia and totally annihilated the other (which comprised about 80% of the strength of the formerly 'invincible' Wehrmacht), halted German advance totally and made the situation so bad for the Germans of the High command that they started to choke out in daily meetings.

 US efforts were undoubtably the largest in the areas west of Berlin, but it just pales in contrast when you pit them against the amount of sacrifice both the Germans and Russians had laid out between Moscow and Berlin.

 What it Germany was still in cahoots with the Russians? What if Operation Sealion was attempted at some point? What if the Brits had to face the same amount of military might the Russians had faced on their own home isle? Would they have survived that?

 Yes, WW2 was a collective effort of all the brave men and women of all the Allied forces, but is it really so hard to admit that it was the Russians that pulled most of the weight?


 
Quote
What really crippled the Germans was'nt the Tactical air attacks on Wermacht units on the Russian front, but the RAF Bomber command and the U.S. 8th AF's bombing campaign against Industrial germany. If that campaign had never started, Hitler's war machine could have changed the tide of the war in the east, as well.


 Industrial Germany was producing more materials, resources, planes and tanks than ever, at the peak of the bomber campaigns by the RAF and the USAAF. It was soldiers and pilots Germany lacked, and the absolute majority of the decimation of human resources for Germany, happened east of Berlin, not the west.

 Germany was already crippled by the Russians. It took a lot of help from US and UK until the Russians finally pushed the Germans in that state, but the crippling blow itself came from "Ivan" next door.

 The Germans were waiting for the coup-de-grace, when a suckerpunch came from the backside in the form of Omaha Beach,
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 02:13:15 PM by Kweassa »

Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2007, 02:15:46 PM »
To be honest all this aircraft should have been in the game long time ago.

 There are huge holes to plug in AH.
- Early Russian fighters like Yak1/1b, Lagg3 or I16 are needed.
 -Early Japanese army planes like the Oscar.
  -Russian tactical bombers like the Pe2 or tu2.
 -Ki-44 is also a missing link in Japanese army planes.
 -A late war German bomber like Ju-188 or He177.
 -Mobile AAA's are needed.
 -More tanks
 -I would love to see a decent destroyer to deffend the ports and costal bases.

Offline FrodeMk3

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2007, 02:45:40 PM »
I should have added in my previous post, Kweassa, that Hitler made some really bad political/Strategic calls, too.

The RAF was on the ropes, it's airfields under Fighter Command were decimated, All the Air marshals giving them 6 weeks or less...

When Hitler got mad at a nighttime bomb raid on Berlin, and switched targets to cities instead.

Fighter command rebuilt, stopped Georing, and forced the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion.

While still not even finished with the BoB, He turns on Stalin, and attacks east.

While Making great initial gains, and sweeping victories, his lines of supply, and the fact that he let up on GB, cause him to slowly bog down in Russia.

Almost all of this is done against the wishes of the General Staff, but who can say no to the Fuhrer?

Really, these reasons have to also be listed as to why the Allies came out victorious. Blunders at the highest level, had they been averted, could have changed the outcome too.

Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2007, 03:07:21 PM »
Some pics of the Tu-2



tupolev Tu-2 gunship.:D




Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2007, 03:17:46 PM »
Pe-2 :)



:)

Offline Ball

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2007, 04:16:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
The Germans were waiting for the coup-de-grace, when a suckerpunch came from the backside in the form of Omaha Beach,


Not to mention Gold, Juno and Sword.

Offline Rino

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2007, 04:55:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Well then I guess this uneducated American would ask HTC what his target audience is, and would have the broadest appeal to the masses.

I don't think that's a Pe-2 :)


     They want a Soviet bomber..fine, give them a SB-2 and watch em
choke on it :D
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Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2007, 04:55:57 PM »
WW2 footage of Pe2 in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7eaFzEEqmI

Offline Rino

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2007, 04:57:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Imagine a Dresden bombing that lasts for 7 months when comparing with Stalingrad, and one that lasts 3 years when comparing with Leningrad. Dresden is undoubtably the singe largest bombing raid of WW2 but it lasted for two days. The Russian cities facing against three German army groups, however, were bombed constantly with no discretion towards civilian facilities whatsoever, for years.

 Dresden turned into a parking lot in the February of 1945, by which time the Soviets already had plenty of parking lots all over their entire Western border areas. 250k dead in a single day is gruesome, but add up the numbers and see in which part of Europe the Germans died by the thousands everyday for years.

 We're talking about a front in which the military disassembles entire industries and moves them by transportation, and then reassembles them in safe areas, here.


      Wow, makes you wonder why the west even bothered fighting.
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Offline Ball

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2007, 05:02:56 PM »
Didn't the German army have something like 20 batallions (maybe incorrect term, i dont follow army stuff much) in the Western front, and something like 120 in the East?

Offline Noir

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2007, 05:41:28 PM »
We need a russian plane that can drop more that 600kg of bombs like the IL2. Actually that was the Pe-2 typical load but it could hold up to 1000kg in the early versions, and it had a level bombing sight.

Quote
Along with the bombsight for level bombing in the glass nose, the pilot had a windscreen bombsight for dive bombing


http://www.vectorsite.net/avpe2.html#m3

The variant to have in AH would be the Pe2FT, because we don't care much of the high altitude performance, and that more defence is always better :)

I don't know much about the Tu-2, tell me about it ! I'm reading the webpage you posted earlier :D

I did vote for the Russian bomber :aok
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 05:43:51 PM by Noir »
now posting as SirNuke

Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2007, 06:00:15 PM »
Here some more info:

"The prototype Tu-2, designated ANT-60 was completed following the evacuation of the Moscow facility to Omsk in 11/41 and the maiden flight occurred on 12/15/41. State and manufacturer’s trials occurred from 12/15/41-8/22/42. On 3/28.42, the aircraft was given the production designation of Tu-2. Powered by two 1,700-hp M-82 engines, top speed was 323 mph with a service ceiling of 29,500 feet and a range of 1,255 miles. Armament consisted of 3 7.62mm machineguns (1 rearward firing), 2 12.7mm machineguns and 2 20mm cannon and 10 132mm rockets. Normal bomb load was 2,204 lbs with a maximum bomb load of 6,613 lbs. At the end of 1941, production began with the first 3 bombers being completed in 2/42. Defects in their engines meant that the planes were not sent to units until 9/42 when they were sent to the 3rd Air Army. During the service trials, the aircraft flew 25 combat missions without a loss. Each aircraft flew once a day on an average flight range of 310 miles with bomb loads ranging from 2,204-4,409 lbs. On the whole, the Tu-2 received a more favorable assessment than the Pe-2. It was noted that the aircraft had a powerful armament, was almost 62 mph faster at low and medium altitudes and could carry up to 6,613 lbs of bombs. Several shortcomings were also pointed out.

The 132nd Bomber Air Regiment soon arrived at the front. By the beginning of the Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad, 17 Tu-2s were operational of which 15 were combat ready. All were in the 3rd Air Army at the Kalinin Front. Marshall Novikov, the Commander-in-Chief of the Soviet Air Force wrote that the Tu-2s were essential to the front line regiments. After stating that the Pe-2s had insufficient range and that it was difficult to organize the cooperation of the bombers on the different fronts, he concluded that the Tu-2 was necessary. Novikov’s report and the report on the results of the Tu-2’s service trials were late. An order stopping the production of the Tu-2 at the Omsk factory and replacing it with the Yak-9 fighter had been issued on 10/7/42. Tupolev went to Moscow to argue his case for continuation of the production of the Tu-2. When Tu-2 production was interrupted, the reports reached the Central Committee Secretariat and Stalin in person. The aircraft had been highly praised and A. Shakhurin, the Aircraft Industry People’s Commissar was called before Stalin and told that the Tu-2 was to go back into production. On 6/17/43 the decision was taken to continue production at Plant 23 in Moscow, that had just started building Ilyushin Il-4s.

In spite of the interruption of in production, Tupolev continued development work on the Tu-2. The most comprehensive changes included the air brake grids and automatic dive recovery control system were removed, the tailplane was made non-adjustable the nose machineguns were removed, the control system was simplified and the fuel system was considerably simplified. In addition, the plane was given the 1,850-hp M-82FN engines that resulted in a maximum speed of 328 mph at sea level and 352 mph at 18,000 feet. On the basis of the test results, on 7/20/43, this version of the Tu-2 was placed in production. On 8/26/43, the first fully modified Tu-2 flew for the first time and the state and manufacturer’s trials began shortly thereafter. These suffered protracted delay due to the leading engineer, but the test reports showed the Tu-2 had better performance than other types then serving with the VVS. The service ceiling and range (31,200 feet and 1,304 miles) were even better than specified but directional stability was still inadequate. In addition, the pilot’s and navigator’s views were poor. The M-82FN engines were also proving to be unreliable and there were problems with the propellers owing to the danger of overspeeding.

By the end of the state trials in 12/43, deliveries had begun. 16 aircraft were ready at the end of the year, and the first unit to receive them was the 47th Reconnaissance Regiment. By the beginning of 6/44, the Tu-2s were in service in large numbers and had fully equipped the 334th Bomber Air Division. On 6/17/44, the Tu-2s proved themselves in a bombing mission against the Vyborg railway terminal, delivering a particularly strong blow. After that operation the division was awarded the title of Leningradskaya.

When at the beginning of 6/44 it was decided to conduct service trials of the Tu-2, the 334th Red Banner Bomber Air Division had 87 Tu-2s, of which 74 were airworthy. The Tu-2s were used for level bombing in daytime, loaded with FAB-500 and 1000 bombs and RAB-3 bomb cassettes (which the Pe-2s could not carry), in addition to their normal load in the bomb bay and external hard points. Because the supply of bombs was irregular, the average bomb load during the first 2 months was 2,645 lbs. Not until 9/44 did it increase to 2,976 lbs. Assessing the Tu-2 from the results of the service trials, the commander of the 132nd Bomber Air Regiment wrote that it was an excellent and modern twin-engine bomber and praised its easy handling, ability to fly on one engine, high-speed, range and capability of carrying large bomb loads.

Intensive efforts were made to increase Tu-2 production, but the Moscow plant was at capacity. Consequently, in 1944 little more than 30 aircraft per day were being built. By the beginning of 1945, in addition to the 334th Bomber Air Division of the 3rd Air Army of the Baltic Front, which was equipped with 112 Tu-2s, the 336th Bomber Air Division of the 4th Air Army of the Belorussian Front had 94 Tu-2s. These units and the 47th Long-Range Reconnaissance Air Regiments were the main users operating the Tu-2. A total of 278 Tu-2s, 264 of them air worthy, comprised about 9% of the whole bomber fleet of the VVS. The low percentage was due to the fact that the Tu-2 could not replace the Pe-2 in the dive-bomber role. A total of 2,527 Tu-2s were built.

Sources:
Bill Gunston, The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft, Osprey, 2000.
Chris Bishop (Ed.), Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II, Barnes & Noble, 1998.
Enzo Angelucci, Paolo Matricardi & Pierluigi Pinto, World War II Combat Aircraft, Whitestar Publishers, 2000.
Yefim Gordon & Dmitri Khazanov, Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War: V. 2: Twin-Engine Fighters, Attack Aircraft and Bombers, Midland Publishing, 1999."

Offline JAWS2003

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2007, 09:46:11 PM »
A book :D







And a model to go with it. :D
:D

Offline tedrbr

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The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2007, 10:10:49 PM »
Reality Check.

Russian, Italian, Japanese plane sets all have holes in them.  German bomber force has holes in it too.

Were we talking about the addition of 4 or 5 planes to the game, Russian bombers might have a chance.  If EW and AvA more popular, the He-111 might have a chance.

Since they are talking about adding 1 plane, uno, one, single,.....my bet it comes down to the only perkable bomber listed, the A-26Invader (B model with 14 forward firing .50's MGs with 400 rpg), or, more likely, one of the better performing fighters listed.

And since Yak 3 not getting much talk, my bet is the closest the Russian plane set will get to an addition is it the vote is for the P-39, and it comes as a Russian P-39 default skin from Lend-Lease and placed in the Russian plane set.