Author Topic: gun control...  (Read 5986 times)

Offline lazs2

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gun control...
« Reply #240 on: April 20, 2007, 02:15:49 PM »
curval.. about half the things you say about me are true but...  say they all were...  What about me,  in your opinion, would make me dangerous to be around with a firearm?

It is like the question of "what firearms would you allow me to have?"

What personality traits would be acceptable for a firearms owner to have?   If he is murderous with a suicidal bent to boot... why give him a drivers licence?   Won't he just turn the wheel a fraction and take out a whole family?  

Cops are given extensive evaluations... they kill themselves and get divorced at a very high rate.

And... as some have pointed out..  If the rules are too strict the murderers will just use the gun illegaly or...  use something else.

Some minor adjustments could be made but you will never get shrinks to open up their records or to agree on what traits make for a threat when coupled with a gun or a car or even fertilizer and diesel fuel.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #241 on: April 20, 2007, 02:17:50 PM »
and ripley...  you dont need murder in your country.. your population is shrinking on its own.

lazs

Offline Curval

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gun control...
« Reply #242 on: April 20, 2007, 02:37:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
curval.. about half the things you say about me are true but...  say they all were...  What about me,  in your opinion, would make me dangerous to be around with a firearm?


Nothing at all.  But I'm not sure a psych would feel the same way.  

I was just making the point that these evaluations would be totally subjective if put in place, particularly when dealing with whether or not a person being evaluated should be "allowed" to own or carry a gun.

The pychs would inevitably get it wrong in some cases...preventing say...YOU from getting a gun while allowing a mass murderer to have one.
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Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #243 on: April 20, 2007, 03:45:25 PM »
You guys want to know what it all REALLY boils down to??

Many people have gone with the popular perception that guns are just evil. Nobody has any legit reason to own one and anyone who claims they do have a reason to own a gun is some nut job. Then you have the ever so popular "Guns are designed to kill people" That's my personal favorite by the way. Of course there is the, "Only the military and police should have guns."

OK lets establish some general facts here. Over 80 MILLION firearms are in the possesion of citizens in this country. Out of that 80 million, how many are used in a crime every year? I'll be generous here and call it 1% and that's high and everyone knows it. Now out of that 1% how many of those guns were purchased legally and then used to commit a violent crime? Again I'll be generous and say maybe 25%. The rest of those are commited by criminals in the first place that got their guns illegally. These criminals use fully automatic weapons that the law abiding public doesn't have access too, or are guns that they stole while commiting a previous crime, or bought from their gang banger buddy who stole it.

So if you follow me on this, most gun crimes are commited by criminals in the first place so any laws that are passed really don't matter to them at all, and then you have a small portion of crimes that are commited by someone who legally purchased a gun and then lost their mind and went nuts i.e. guy walks in on his wife and her lover and he blows them away. Then you have the occasional situation such as VT where someone was known to be a disturbed person and he fell through the cracks of the system and did what he did. And last but not least the occasional firearm accident where some kid gets a hold of dads pistol and either shoots himself or his friend, and that's such a small percentage of gun incidents it's really not even worth mentioning but for the bleeding heart liberals I'll include it.

So we have all these guns floating around in this country and yet for the most part they are owned by good upstanding law abiding citizens who keep them locked up in gun cabinets and safes. Everything is fine until, OH NO!!!!! Someone got shot today. The media likes to talk about the shooting and what kind of gun was used and then all the anti gun folks jump up and point at the incident and say "BAN THEM ALL!!!!" and if the public is lucky they get a 2 second blurb about the person that pulled the trigger and 9 times out of 10 that person has a criminal record a mile long. The media doesn't want you to know about that though. It doesn't matter that most gun crimes are commited by someone who has shown a long record of disregarding the law, they just want to show you that a gun killed someone.

OK be that as it may, how many people are killed or maimed on the roads every day in this country because some idiot was talking on his cell phone while driving and wasn't paying attention to what they were doing? Or they were putting on their makeup, or eating their lunch, or typing on their laptop, or watching their portable TV (yes I've seen that one). In this country you are at least 100 times more likely to get killed in a car accident than you are of getting shot by a gun.

How many people are killed or maimed every year by a doctor? More people than are killed by a gun.

The liberal anti gun crowd doesn't want to get rid of guns because they are bad. They want to get rid of guns because that is the only thing preventing them from taking over this country and then deciding what everyone can and can't do according to their theories of life.

The Second Ammendment was put there for a reason. The reason is this.

Political power comes out of the barrel of a gun. Plain and simple. This country was founded on the belief that the power of the government comes from the governed i.e. the people. An armed population retains the political power of the government, and the ablility to dispose of that government if it tries to remove the power from the people. Those in government "service" that would take away your right to own a gun will not stop there. Once the power to overthrow the government is removed, that government can do whatever it wants at that point with no fear of reprisal from the people. That is called a dictatorship folks.

Guns in our country is not the problem. The only reason this country was brought about was because the citizens had their guns and used them to throw off a dictorial government and establish the form of government we have now.

This country of ours is the ONLY government in the world where EVERY law abiding citizen has the RIGHT to own a firearm. The founding fathers knew then that it's the right of every citizen to retain and exercise the political power to keep the government in check. Freedom REQUIRES the citizens to exercise that power.

Those that want to take away that right do not believe that the average citizen has the ability nor the right to exercise political power.

For those that don't like guns, well you also have the RIGHT to not own one. It's your choice. You have the FREEDOM to decide on your own if you will own a gun or not. What the anti gun folks do not have the right to do however is dictate our rights to those of us that do own guns.

So......if a citizen of this county goes out and buys a gun, that citizen is exercising their rights under the Constitution and by doing so they are taking personal responsiblity to retain political power unto themselves and not rely on the government to protect them or take care of them. That is advanced citizenship and with it come a moral responsability to use that power correctly.

Now for the anti gun crowd, do you really think you have the right to deny me my rights because the media, and Hollywood like to talk about how evil guns are? Should I have to give up my rights because some criminal used a gun while commiting a crime? Well what about that same criminal that uses a car to flee from the police, causes an accident and kills someone with their car while they were braking the law? I say BAN ALL CARS!!!! We can go back to riding horses. Wouldn't bother me at all, I love horses. Sure would save alot of money for gas now wouldn't it?

So I tell you anti gunners this. Give up your vehicles and I'll give up my guns. Seems only fair since the soccer mom anti gun nuts are going to kill more people this year with their cars than us pro gun nuts will with our guns.
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #244 on: April 20, 2007, 04:03:20 PM »
If you had read that list of school killings I posted, I think you'll find that's how most of the nutbags get their weapons.
====
Nutbags are the problem.  I guess we just live with it and hope their bullets dont hit us or our wives and children, our loved ones.

Welcome to America, land of the nutbags armed to the teeth :D
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #245 on: April 20, 2007, 04:31:54 PM »
I don't feel I live in a land of nutbags.

I think there's a very small percentage of them, incredibly small in fact.

In my entire life I've never been threatened by someone with a gun, although I've been threatened with bodily harm by people using other objects.

In my entire life, I've never threatened anyone else with a gun.


I guess perception is everything.
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #246 on: April 20, 2007, 04:56:43 PM »
Have you never been in the presence of a genuine certified nutbag?
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Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #247 on: April 20, 2007, 04:58:13 PM »
He probably doesn't live in commiefornia:D
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Offline Shamus

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« Reply #248 on: April 20, 2007, 05:05:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68ZooM
I guess i could say what if he had a shotgun pointed at you and was intent on using it, your sword wouldnt do squat and i doubt youd be posting today, but i'm glad you fended him off


Then I would have no other choice but to use my light saber and the force, and thank you for your concern.

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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gun control...
« Reply #249 on: April 20, 2007, 05:32:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
it's REAL EASY for you to sit there and DEMAND people come up with solutions
====
calm down hilts.  Im not DEMANDING anything, and if I were it would not be REAL EASY.  We squared up on this now?


"I'm not against workable, reasonable, affordable ideas" - "I don't have any that meet those criteria."
====
Well there it is then.......

I know whats involved in a clearance and thats why I suggested it.  

A mental health evaluation should be mandatory for firearms ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

A firearms safety class should be mandatory for firearms ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

A Permit for cencealed weapons should be mandatory for pistol ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

I dont see these as being cost prohibitive.  We have wasted 300+ billion dollars in Iraq and its cost us over 3200 american lives.  Weve got deep pockets apparently.

Thanks for the discussion, its resulted in some good thinking.


Okay Skippy, I gave you a short, incomplete list of problems with your idea of having people certified mentally sound enough to own firearms. I have also provided a list of the failures of the system in the case of Cho, as have others. You have provided NOTHING in the way of solutions to the problems with your idea I pointed out, you merely sit there and say "It can be made to work and you (Toad, Mav, myself and others who have shown you why it won't work) know it". That's ALL you've got. Which amounts to NOTHING.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #250 on: April 20, 2007, 05:40:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
it's REAL EASY for you to sit there and DEMAND people come up with solutions
====
calm down hilts.  Im not DEMANDING anything, and if I were it would not be REAL EASY.  We squared up on this now?  

A mental health evaluation should be mandatory for firearms ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

Thanks for the discussion, its resulted in some good thinking.


Okay, to keep this short, where you MIGHT take the time to read it, I'll deal with the problems found in your assertion that is found in italics above. Here it is again, a few very short paragraphs, or single sentences:

Yeager, who is going to pay for these psychiatric evaluations, who is going to do them, and how long is the wait going to be to have one?

Answers:

The gun owners would be forced to pay. Problem: The cost would be outrageous, because of the liability involved. Besides, I already have to pay $500+ for a decent gun, $200 for concealed carry class, $200 total to apply, around $100 for the permit itself, and another fee to renew. Any psychiatrist or psychologist willing to open themselves up to the liability involved is going to charge THOUSANDS of dollars.

No psychiatrist or psychologist is going to be willing to do those evaluations because the liability costs would be prohibitive. Problem: The first time a psychiatrist or psychologist "lets one slip through the cracks" they'll be sued for BILLIONS. Problem: To prevent "letting one slip through the cracks", NO ONE will pass the evaluation, the failure to pass rate will be 90% PLUS. Problem: Now honest sane citizens are prevented from owning a weapon and their rights under the 2nd Amendment violated, so the courts are flooded, and rightly so, with citizens suing to get their rights back.

The wait for evaluation would be an eternity. Problem: There aren't enough psychologists and psychiatrists to handle the work load, IF any of them were stupid enough to open themselves up to the liability of "letting one slip through the cracks". Problem: The wait for an evaluation would be eternal, preventing honest law abiding sane citizens from purchasing weapons.


Okay, there it is again. Short and sweet. You say it can be done. I presented you a FEW of the problems with JUST the mental evaluation part of your solution. So, since you say it can be done, let's hear your solution to those problems, and then we'll move one.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Toad

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« Reply #251 on: April 20, 2007, 05:40:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Have you never been in the presence of a genuine certified nutbag?


I don't know.. does exchanging posts with some on this BBS count? :)

I've been in the presence of nutbags but none of them armed with firearms.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline FrodeMk3

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« Reply #252 on: April 20, 2007, 05:44:22 PM »
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Yeager
Have you never been in the presence of a genuine certified nutbag?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't know.. does exchanging posts with some on this BBS count?

I've been in the presence of nutbags but none of them armed with firearms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The pixel is mightier than the sword. :rofl

Offline Maverick

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gun control...
« Reply #253 on: April 20, 2007, 07:19:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Have you never been in the presence of a genuine certified nutbag?


Yup I have and more than once. One of them was in the process of trying to kill me with his knife at the time I met him. My vest stopped the blade. They are out there, in more ways than one. Just a situation of life because not everyone is born "normal" whatever the hell THAT is.

Frankly life is not safe, never has been and likely never will. You can live in fear of everything or you can just live. No one is guaranteed a long, healthy or safe life.
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Offline Warspawn

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gun control...
« Reply #254 on: April 20, 2007, 07:47:20 PM »
You know what would be something interesting to have enacted?

A mandatory 2 year enlistment in the guard or reserves upon leaving classes in high school or college before entering the work force.  During this time you would have training in weapons and have had a psych work up done.

Hmm...sounds almost like Starship Troopers; where in order to obtain full rights as a citizen, you would have had to participate in the defense of those rights...

Seems to work pretty well for lots of countries with citizen-soldiers, like Switzerland.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 07:49:48 PM by Warspawn »
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