Author Topic: A US puppet govt wont be tolerated  (Read 2124 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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A US puppet govt wont be tolerated
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2007, 05:50:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
Which makes us different from other countries how?


It doesn't nor was the point I was trying to make.  The point I was trying to get across is that the Iranians or other Middle Eastern countries aren't alone in this line of thinking and there is some truth behind it and sometimes that truth is an ugly one.  


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Offline john9001

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« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2007, 05:51:37 PM »
if i were king , i would bring home ALL US troops and fleets, cut off all foreign aid and revisit trade agreements, and of course secure our borders.

i don't want to save the world , let them save themselves.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2007, 06:49:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
if i were king , i would bring home ALL US troops and fleets, cut off all foreign aid and revisit trade agreements, and of course secure our borders.

i don't want to save the world , let them save themselves.


If I were President I would close all foreign US bases, bring home all our troops. Secure our borders. I would also cut off the vast majority of foreign aid. I would  use the money saved from closing all foreign bases and the foreign aid monies to find a renewable alternative energy source.

Of course then we would still be the bad guys for taking money out of the local economies and for not giving free hand outs (foreign aid).
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Offline AWMac

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« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2007, 07:29:37 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 07:32:49 PM by AWMac »

Offline x0847Marine

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A US puppet govt wont be tolerated
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2007, 10:30:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
x0847Marine, now i'm really confused, are you saying the Iraq people elected a US puppet govt that they now don't like or the govt they elected is not the govt they wanted or are you confused or are the Iraq people confused?

i cannot debate you Iranian woman because under Islamic law she should keep quiet, wear a veil and walk 5 steps behind me or be stoned to death.


I never mentioned the Iraqi elections.. perception is reality about how that govt came about. This "war" isn't a stand alone incident, but the culmination of 50 years of US policy failure to manipulate the region.

BTW her family are christian Persians, not Muslims, ergo Islamic law doesn't apply... but I understand you not wanting to look silly.

Offline babek-

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A US puppet govt wont be tolerated
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2007, 03:30:35 AM »
First I would like to ask if any regime which is considered by its own people as a puppet regime could survive a longer period of time.

In the case of Iran most people dont know the history of this country. I read in some threads here a statement of a 14 year old boy that Iran is lacking culture or by someone else that an iranian woman has to go 5 steps behind her husband or will be stoned to death. Thats on the one hand funny to read for an iranian, especially if I try to create a picture in my mind where one of my aunts would go 5 steps behind one of my uncles in Iran. On the other it shows how propaganda works.

First it should be known that Iran is a special country in the region. Unlike most of it neighbors which were created after WW1  - like Iraq, Saudi-Arabia, Jordan and so on or after WW2 - like Israel or even later after the end of the Soviet Union - like Armenia or Azerbeidjan, Iran exists for 2500 years.
It was never a colony and managed to keep its identity. So the attempt to arabize Iran failed, which resulted in the hate between semite arabs and aryan iranians.
Also the iranians changed the religion, mixing elements of the old Sassanid Empire and their religion with the Islam. The result was the shi ite islam, which is dominant in the regions of the old sassanid empire: Iran, the western part of Afghanistan and the southeast part of Iraq - like Basra.

Thats all very complicated, its enough to keep ion mind that there is a deep mistrust and hate between iranians and arabs, because of the history. So they call themself muslims but they are not friends. Both - the arabs and the iranians always wanted to be the leading nations of Islam. Today the centres of these 2 rivals are for the sunnites Saudi Arabia and for the shi ites Teheran or to be more precise Mekka and Ghom.
Iraq is on the battlefields of this conflict, where the Saudis help the sunnites (by helping the sunnite Al Kaida,  who perform the suicide bombings) and the Iranians helping the shi ite militias.

But back to history.

Looking the last 150 years of iranian history, we see the Quadjar dynasty, which was corrupt and weak. This weakness was on the other hand a chance for changes. In WW1 Iran declared its neutrality but became a battlefiels, when british and russian forces on the one hand were fighting osman-turk-forces on the other hand in iranian territory.
Also the soviet revolution left an impression to the iranian people - so there were changes - like the creation of more right of the parliament (although Iran was a monarchy).
Then the founder of the short-living Pahlevi-dynasty deposed the last Quadjar Shah and declared himself the new Shah of Iran. Or Persia - to be more precise. Although the iranians always called Iran Iran - the name Persia was adopted from the ancient greek historicans by the european nations. Under the rule of Shah Reza Khan this mistake was corrected and Iran was officially called Iran = land of the aryans.

The new Shah wanted to make a modernization like the great Ataturk did in Turkey.

There was a mistrust towards countries like France and Russia and especially England. So Iran looked for new friends - finding them in the German Reich. This relation ship went on - even the uniforms of the imperial iranian army became similiar to the german design. Even the officer caps and Fritz-Steelhelmets were used in these times.

Then WW2 started and again Iran declared its neutrality. The allies wanted to force Iran to declare war to the German Reich and became part of the Allies, but the iranian Shah refused.

So Iran was attacked from the north by soviet forces and the south by british/indian forces. The country was occupied and the Shah deposed, replaced by his son. Under this puppet Iran became an ally and declared war to Germany and was used as an support route for the USSR.

These events created a deep hate against England in large parts of the higher families in Iran.

After WW2 Iran searched for a new friend who could be trusted. And they found this friend in the USA.
A relativly young country which was a superpower and the home of democracy. All this was very fascinating for the generation of iranians who were from the better families, studied in foreign countries and wanted to change Iran to a democracy. The USA seemed to be the perfect ally for this and there was a really deep trust in your country.

Also the USA helped to kick out this soviet puppet country Mahabad of the Kurds on iranian territory, which raised the trust to the new ally.

In 1953 Iran was very close to become a democracy. Not a democracy which was teached and orderd by foreigners and occupation forces. But a democracy created by iranians themself.
In an unbloody revolution the Shah was sent to exile.

Then Operation Ajax was performed by the UK and the USA.
The democracy was destroyed before it was born. The dictator was reinstalled. And the GeStaPo-like SAVAK was created with the help of the CIA and the Mossad. From this day the picture of the USA of being a nation helping other nations to vbecome a democracy was destroyed in Iran. Especially the young and intelligent generation was dissappointed and shocked by these events.

After the reestablishment of the Shah the western media showed these nice pictured of 1000 and 1 night of the florishing Iran with its nice and modern king.

In reality there were decades of horror. Every year tenthousands of iranians were tortured or killed by the SAVAK. The infamous Evin-prison was a symbol of this terror. Most of them were from the younger generation, the democrats who wanted to create an iranian democracy. And so - during these times - only the radical elements survived. Like the religious fanatics or the left-wing-radicals like the MKE or the Tudeh-party.

The bloody revolution in iran was not done because of some religious reasons. It was just the moment, when the people who had enough of the terror of the Shah-regime wanted to finish this.

The people didnt thought about the next regime - thex just wanted to eliminate the Shah regime and its SAVAK and to make sure that it could never be re-established like it happened in 1953.

Also the attack against the US-embassy was done because of this fear: The US-embassy was the command-centre of Operation Ajax in 1953 and so many iranian feared that history would repeat.

There were still innerpolitical fightings when Khomeini had arrived and when the Shah died of cancer in exile. But when Saddam and the arabs invaded Iran all inner political fightings ended. A foreign nation was attacking Iran - and so the iranian people supported the actual regime in order to fight the invader. This is a typical iranian behavior and will repeat again, when a foreign nation attacks Iran.

So in the next 8 years Iran has to fight a war against an Iraq with a terrorregime which was helped by the whole western world.
When the Iraq used gas weapons, killing 130.000 iranian soldiers with gas, the so called civilized nations used their Veto-option in the UN and so prevented sanctions against Iraq. This event destroyed the meaning of the UN as a neutral world organization for many iranians.

They managed to live with embargos and although there were so bitter circumstances, they started again to try to build a democracy.
And although the terroristic regime of the mullahs was even more dangerous than the Shah terror regime there were successes in reducing the power of the mullahs. Especially in the years after the war against Iraq and before 9/11.

Then 9/11 happened and Bush called Iran a member of the axis of evil, helping the radical mullahs to tell the iranians the propaganda story of the USA which wants to attack Iran.

So these years were a major setback for the iranian democrats - but they have not been destroyed. They are still growing in power and in the last year Ahmadinedjad got a major defeat in an important election. His time is running out. If there is no event which would rally the iranian people behind him (like an attack for example) he will be soon history.

To come back to the topic: Yes - the iranians would fight any installed puppet regime. There is no accepted alternative outside Iran.
The son of the deposed Shah is not accepted as a ruler. The so called democratic female president in exile Radjavi is seen as a traitor, because her MEK-terrorists fought during the Iran-Iraq War on the side of Saddams hordes against Iran.

This MEK/MKO is in so far interesting, because its on the one and defined by the USA as a terroistic organisation. On the other hand they are protected by US-soldiers in Iraq. They live in their military camp, which was given to them by Saddam when these traitors fought against iranians.
They perform terror-attacks in Iran - like bombing civilian targets. Like terrorists do. So there is the question why the leading nation of the War against Terrorism is protecting a large group of terroists which they define as terrorist by themself.
But this is another topic.

The mullahs of today who are ruling Iran are corrupt. They want to become richer and more powerful. Ahmadinedjad has no real power, because the real political decisions in iran are not made by the president but by the Council of the guardians.

And all this terror-suppressing regime of the Mullahs in Iran cant avoid that more and more iranians of the younger generation will continue to create finally a democracy in Iran. Without the help of foreigners, which are mostly not trusted.

The Iranian democracy must be done by iranians in Iran. Not by foreigners, not by some exile dreamers.

And I am sure that this will happen one day. The mullah regime is again in defense - like it was before 9/11.
I just hope that the coming events wont help again the mullahs.

Offline -tronski-

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A US puppet govt wont be tolerated
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2007, 05:43:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Do you have sources for that?


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Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2007, 01:45:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by babek-
First I would like to ask if any regime which is considered by its own people as a puppet regime could survive a longer period of time.

In the case of Iran most people dont know the history of this country. I read in some threads here a statement of a 14 year old boy that Iran is lacking culture or by someone else that an iranian woman has to go 5 steps behind her husband or will be stoned to death. Thats on the one hand funny to read for an iranian, especially if I try to create a picture in my mind where one of my aunts would go 5 steps behind one of my uncles in Iran. On the other it shows how propaganda works.



Excellent post.

I'm still left wondering what was going through Bush's head as far as his "plan" for the Iraq govt to be accepted by the people of the region. Did he really think the elections would pacify generations of distrust / hate? these people don't trust the US one iota, but they'd make an exception this time?

All the rhetoric in the world from our govt wont make the current Iraqi govt anything but an unacceptable puppet stooge.

Apparently there's a motto going around the mid-east, especially in Iran, to "fight them over there, not here" (mocking Bush).. as many believe the US will ultimately attack Iran and its better to fight the Americans on Iraq soil.

Our military shouldn't have to pay for inept politicians putting forward a plan that even Ray Charles could see would ultimately fail in grand fashion.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2007, 02:16:11 PM »
Very interesting Tronski. That kinda puts a damper on the stance that the US gave Saddam chemical weapons. Many countries sold Saddam varies *pieces of the puzzle* including the US. I have posted a link in a previous thread that showed that the US stopped the sales of dual use components after it became clear that Saddam was using chemical weapons on the battlefield.

From your Wikipedia link:

Quote
The Al Haddad trading company of Tennessee delivered 60 tons of DMMP, a chemical used to make sarin, a nerve gas implicated in so-called Gulf War Syndrome. The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company. The firm was owned by Sahib Abd al-Amir al-Haddad, an Iraqi-born, naturalized American citizen. Recent stories in The New York Times and The Tennessean reported that al-Haddad was arrested in Bulgaria in November 2002 while trying to arrange an arms sale to Iraq. Al-Haddad was charged with conspiring to purchase equipment for the manufacture of a giant Iraqi cannon. In 1984, U.S. Customs at New York's Kennedy Airport stop an order addressed to the Iraqi State Enterprise for Pesticide Production for 74 drums of potassium fluoride, a chemical used in the production of Sarin. The order was places by Al-Haddad Enterprises Incorporates, owned by an individual named Sahib al-Haddad. [8]

The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to both Iraq and Iran in violation of U.S. export laws for which it was forced to pay a fine in 1989. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.


That shows that the US didn't just turn a blind eye to the sales and just try to *sweep it under the rug* as Sirloin claimed earlier in this thread.

Thanks for the links and infos Tronski. :)
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Offline Eagler

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A US puppet govt wont be tolerated
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2007, 02:43:36 PM »
so who do you think is more brain washed?
the average american or the average Iranian?

my guess is the average Iranian.

so are Germany, Japan and Italy "puppet"  govs from WW2 times? I do not think so .. but to some any htat agree with the the "great satan" would be considered puppets. Sort of like a successful black man in america being called an "uncle tom" by his uniformed/uneducated peers
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 02:46:53 PM by Eagler »
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Offline Curval

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A US puppet govt wont be tolerated
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2007, 02:46:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
so who do you think is more brain washed?
the average american or the average Iranian?

my guess is the average Iranian.


LOL

I fear this thread says otherwise.

I've watched with interest how Xmarine (in this thread) and Yeagar (in a separate thread) have been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different from the republican/libertarian line.
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2007, 02:48:21 PM »
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Originally posted by Curval
LOL

I fear this thread says otherwise.

I've watched with interest how Xmarine (in this thread) and Yeagar (in a separate thread) have been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different from the republican/libertarian line.


psst

please show me the average Irainian on this board .. my guess is the average Iranian is not posting to this BBS while he/she is at work :)
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2007, 02:54:47 PM »
I believe XMarine was relaying the thoughts of an average Iranian when he posted the thread.  His sister-in-law's.
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Offline mars01

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« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2007, 03:16:51 PM »
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The Iranian democracy must be done by iranians in Iran. Not by foreigners, not by some exile dreamers.


Yep just like any democracy, if the people can not rise up and fight on their own it will never happen.  No one handed it to the US colonies, it was th people that rose up against the King of England and it's police etc.

I just wish Iraq, Iran and all the other oppressed people in that region had the ability to do so, so we could get the Fk out of there and let them go back to killing each other.

I know this oversimplifies it but come on already.

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2007, 03:25:30 PM »
hey what about Iraqis should install a gov. inside your country, i'm
sure you all would love it ;)
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