one 4 the learners #2

[airspro]

I know who flys a Hurri2C alot and who doesn't fly a Mustang much .

My guess is LYNX is in the Hurri (mumbes that it should be a Hurri1 )

Perhaps we can get some of our learners to pick up the baton

Do I get to answer or not ? I know I can be very nubeish at times

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by LYNX
You are correct.  It's a split esse and in this situation being zoomed by the higher faster con, is  a defensive maneuver.  However, the rest is just plain  WRONG.  You are 180 degree wrong with your concept of "E".

1) Split esse gains "E"
2) A high brake turn blows "E"

Sorry mate.  Marking your paper with a D.  You can transfere ALT for "E" and "E" for ALT but the laws of phyisic don't allow you to transfere "E" for ALT & E.

i see you've never had a lesson from badboy, the master of energy fighting.

basically lynx, that split S is a big E waster. every turn, EVERY turn, no matter how small or wide bleeds e, that's simply a matter of physics. in order to pull that split S you lose a lot of alt (which counts towards E itself) and at the bottom of it you haven't increased speed dramatically. so basically you've just blown loads of E for no reason. in an energy fight you should always go up, never down. that's why you immelman on merge, not split S.

if you go down you lose E. the faster you go the more drag, the lower you are the less potential energy you have, and when you move faster you have to pull harder to turn which wastes more E.

going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out. diving and getting your speed up will lose energy as much of it is wasted as drag)

going up also puts you in a far better position to attack after the guy passes. perhaps badboy will come in and say a bit about this if he sees this post, he's very knowledgable on E fighting, i believe he has some connection with bob shaw and many combat flight instructors.


in essence though, go up in an energy fight. it 'banks' your E which you can always get back out, and it allows you to turn better. the hurri (i presume you) should have gone up. just because he performed a split S doesn't mean he loses of course, you may have won the fight. but a good pony pilot would have torn you to shreds if you gave him an advantage like that. judging by the photo though, he has no idea how to BnZ properly (good BnZ is far more than hiding in the akakosphere, making 1 pass and running), so you probably survived that sortie.





seriously though, you don't fully understand the concept of energy in dogfighting. try and search for some of badboy's posts. he taught me E fighting and for a few months it was all i did. i was fairly good at it too, if i may say so myself.

as bat said, that pony could have won the fight in 30 secs after that maneuver. don't take the ignorance of your enemy for granted, one day a well flown stuka will kick your arse (long story, lets not go there )

do a search on E fighting lynx, you'll find it informative. try searching through simHQ too good luck, and i hope i explained a bit with this post. perhaps i will do a proper writeup for the help and training forum sometime

[clerick]

Originally posted by Simaril
Good advice on the move -- but a quibble here about energy. Am I correct in remembering that energy is proportional to velocity squared times potential energy (alt)?

Read that somewhere on the boards, and kinda remembering it was from HT himself.

If i remember my physics it's kinetic energy = .5mv^2
Where 'm' is the mass and 'v' is velocity

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by clerick
If i remember my physics it's kinetic energy = .5mv^2
Where 'm' is the mass and 'v' is velocity

and gravitational potential energy = mgh

i think simaril is right, the airspeed is more energy wise than the GPE.




but think of it this way, when your plane is travelling at full speed, it's thrust and drag are equal right? that means that all of your plane's power is going straight to drag (wasting thousands upon thousands of joules of energy). Pulling a split S not only takes all the GPE you have built up by climbing for 5 minutes and converting it straight to drag but it puts you at a lower alt making your energy disadvantage even worse.

never go down in a dogfight unless it's to make the kill

[clerick]

somewhat off topic, but i'm curious, does anyone have in their plane specs the coefficient of drag for some of these aircraft?

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by clerick
somewhat off topic, but i'm curious, does anyone have in their plane specs the coefficient of drag for some of these aircraft?

i'm pretty sure it's included in many aircraft specs and blueprints. it's something HTC would need to accurately model planes in the game. i'm pretty sure it's quite common to find drag coefficient even in some test data

[SlapShot]

Not trying to poke you in the eye Biggles, but your observations are confusing ...

going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out.

OK ... this I agree with ... now ... how does one get the E out of the bank ?

Would not diving or going nose low pull E from the bank and turn it into speed ?

Isn't that what one would need E for ... speed ... speed can then be translated back to alt, which in turn puts E back in the bank or the speed can be used for whatever the pilot decides he/she needs it for.

In the case of the Split-S ... he has turned in his E for speed (in the opposite direction) which can be then traded back for alt if so desired or use the increased speed to cause separation.

in order to pull that split S you lose a lot of alt (which counts towards E itself) and at the bottom of it you haven't increased speed dramatically.

Not what I see. I can, and do it on purpose at times, is Split-S in a F6-F ... get my speed up going down ... pull up with WEP and will arrive at a higher alt than when I started the Split-S. At the bottom of the Split-S, just before I pull up, I can guarantee that my speed is considerably faster than when I entered the Split-S.

When trailing bombers, I can put the nose down (transfer E for speed) and then use that speed for closure and then transfer the speed back into potential E when climbing under the bombers for the shot.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).  
[/IMG]

Split  Esse

Originally posted by LYNX
What purpose did it serve?  

Defensive maneuver to avoid a BnZ attack which apparently seemed to have worked  for the short term.......

Originally posted by LYNX
What would you now do if you was the P51?

I would continue to roll my lift vector toward the hurri2C and pull an instantaneous turn riding the tunnel since I have some speed ( E ) to actually burn and keep the attack ON at the current time in the screenshot...the Hurri2C  most times would not expect a BnZ ing pony to keep in the attack, most times would think they would climb back up and continue again to BnZ.......if I failed to make the shot on the 2nd attack, I would then zoom up and drag the Hurri til he floundered then roll over and pull nose down and  go THUMP him in the head........


Biggles,  I did not see anything where LYNX mentioned the Hurri was "Energy Fighting".......the Hurri should be trying to sucker that P51 into stall/turn/angles fighting...the P51 should be the main honcho  worrying/thinking about his "Energy".........

but for some of your thoughts on "E" fighting , yes it is most times better to fightUP


nice short explanation Slappy, also on the gaining closure for Bombers, there is a write-up/Lecture regarding how to close distance when chasing at / near same alt.....as you describe slight dive then climb when u reach em.......


LYNX,

a Split Esse blows potential E, gains kinetic E......

a High ( taking this "HIGH" to mean vertical going up ) break turn Blows kinetic  E but gains Potential E.......

both of you are wrong and right , ROFL.......

[redneb]

... I think I'll just stay in a GV and keep it 2 dimensional....

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Not trying to poke you in the eye Biggles, but your observations are confusing ...

going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out.

OK ... this I agree with ... now ... how does one get the E out of the bank ?

Would not diving or going nose low pull E from the bank and turn it into speed ?

Isn't that what one would need E for ... speed ... speed can then be translated back to alt, which in turn puts E back in the bank or the speed can be used for whatever the pilot decides he/she needs it for.

In the case of the Split-S ... he has turned in his E for speed (in the opposite direction) which can be then traded back for alt if so desired or use the increased speed to cause separation.

in order to pull that split S you lose a lot of alt (which counts towards E itself) and at the bottom of it you haven't increased speed dramatically.

Not what I see. I can, and do it on purpose at times, is Split-S in a F6-F ... get my speed up going down ... pull up with WEP and will arrive at a higher alt than when I started the Split-S. At the bottom of the Split-S, just before I pull up, I can guarantee that my speed is considerably faster than when I entered the Split-S.

When trailing bombers, I can put the nose down (transfer E for speed) and then use that speed for closure and then transfer the speed back into potential E when climbing under the bombers for the shot.

of course you can get the speed back out, that's the point. but transferring the alt to speed, then back again will lose E (basic physics, some E is lost). i'm talking purely from the energy fighting point of view here, where the hurri MUST try to equalise the E, especially against a superior E fighter such as a pony, if it wants to live. this is assuming equal pilots. lynx is an OK stick, and from the looks of it the pony doesn't really know what he's doing.

when you do your thing in the F6F, you may get back to the same alt but you will be going slower right? so you're back to the same place, but you've lost some E, when in this hurri's situation, you need to be doing your best to build it.

split S wastes E, it's a simple fact. you've turned the GPE that was your alt into speed, which gets sucked away by drag and a tight turn. you go back up again and gain GPE but you've lost a lot of airspeed.

the ONLY things effecting your E as a plane in the end, are your engine, and drag. you want to maximise the energy gained and minimise energy lost. faster you go, the more energy is wasted, which is bad news if you're in this situation.

as for chasing bombers, the same goes for fighters, you can speed up a bit to try and close the gap and get a shot. but when you come back up to your original alt, you will be going slower right? that's the point, you've lost E. same thing with pulling a split S.

aside from the fact that it's not the best way to go about energy fighting, and it increases your energy disadvantage, it doesn't give you a chance to shoot at the pony, and he is now even higher above you, making it even easier for him.

split S was the wrong thing to do in this case, unless there was absolutely no other option (saw him too late and break turn would have just given a nice easy profile shot)

[Major Biggles]

good post TC

i seriously hope badboy will see this and add to this. i thought just as you guys did until he totally schooled me, then taught me. TC, remember you asked how i keep my E so well in koth? it is exactly this, minimising energy wastage.


as for the hurri not energy fighting, that's a tough one. if he's at too much of a disadvantage the pony will be in total control, and the hurri is a slow bugger, he's dead meat. if he uses the opportunities he has to gain E he can more successfully try to equalise the E states and have a better chance of winning (going from zero to highly unlikely ). equal pilots of course


just gotta add that this is what makes dogfighting/duelling so much fun. so many styles, so many views, it's what makes each fight unique, that's where the fun is.

blowing up buildings and blasting tanks can be some quick arcade fun for 30 mins, but there is NOTHING that compares to having a good fight between two good pilots, each with their own styles, and overcoming them to win.

a duel in AH is the single most enjoyable experience of any game i have ever played, constantly learning and adapting to enhance your game. it keeps you on your toes and means that the game can never get stale

[clerick]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Not trying to poke you in the eye Biggles, but your observations are confusing ...

going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out.

OK ... this I agree with ... now ... how does one get the E out of the bank ?

Would not diving or going nose low pull E from the bank and turn it into speed ?
   
Yes this is true

Isn't that what one would need E for ... speed ... speed can then be translated back to alt, which in turn puts E back in the bank or the speed can be used for whatever the pilot decides he/she needs it for.

if you start at say, 10,000 you have 'X' amount of potential energy.  By diving and converting potential to kinetic energy you are just changing one form for another.  if you were to pull back up towards 10,000 feet you would arrive there at the same speed as when you first dove.  BUT that is in an ideal physical world without drag or other forces robbing you of energy.

Not what I see. I can, and do it on purpose at times, is Split-S in a F6-F ... get my speed up going down ... pull up with WEP and will arrive at a higher alt than when I started the Split-S. At the bottom of the Split-S, just before I pull up, I can guarantee that my speed is considerably faster than when I entered the Split-S.

notice that if you did that same manuver without WEP you probably wouldnt make it back to your starting altitude and if you did it would be at a significantly reduced speed.  

Imagine coasting down a hill in your car, as you coast you are trading potential for kinetic energy, i.e. speed.  When you get to the bottom and start up the next hill you start to slow down as you trade kinetic for potential energy, i.e. height.  You should also notice that without hitting the gas (or WEP in your example) you wont get to nearly the same height coasting up the hill as when you started coasting down (hope that makes sense).  This is because friction between the wheels and the road, the car and the air, the bearings in the wheels and any number of things are turning your potential energy into heat energy and this means that you dont have as much kinetic energy as you did potential.

mgh = .5mv^2 + E1 + E2 + E...

If you add up al the energy used to create friction and heat and drag AND add to that the maximum kinetic energy you will have the maximum potential energy.  That means that in the real world turning potential energy into kinetic is a losing proposition.

When trailing bombers, I can put the nose down (transfer E for speed) and then use that speed for closure and then transfer the speed back into potential E when climbing under the bombers for the shot.

If you notice that before your dive you may be cruising at about 10,000 ft at 300 mph, you dive and get close to 350-375, you pull back up and climb back to 10,000 ft, but you are now maybe going 200-250 mph, with WEP maybe close to 300.

wow, that was long winded and i'm sure that someone beat me to this...

[Major Biggles]

great post clerick, better explanation than i could come up with.

basically slapshot, if you dive down, you'll get faster, but if you pull back to the same alt, you will be going significantly slower than before, because you've lost E in your turn and to drag.


as for taking E out the bank, you dive of course, but coming back up will waste E. i was talking purely from the hurri's point of view where he needs to build as much E as possible to fight the pony.

[TequilaChaser]

Biggles,

I am fully aware of Badz, badboy, Leon...I have trained with him for over 10 years..........and completely enjoy dueling him.....


to make myself more clearer, LYNX had asked some specific questions in opening this thread.........that is why I posted which plane should be playing what role in the fight.( what type of fighting style )  The hurri is slow and turns better, so as you put it, he should be suckering the P51, bleeding his E down at every chance, so he can outmaneuver him  with angles/stall type fighting.....

actually both planes if the pilots are of any decent skill, should be religiously thinking "E Management"..........but the P51 in my mind should be "E Fighting"........not just bore n zoom.......


clerick, physics show what you post to be very valid..........but now do a search for Badboy's  "The Chase" write-up.......and you'll understand what Slapshot and I mentioned when runing down a set of Bombers, a runtard, a clueless lemming.......

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
clerick, physics show what you post to be very valid..........but now do a search for Badboy's  "The Chase" write-up.......and you'll understand what Slapshot and I mentioned when runing down a set of Bombers, a runtard, a clueless lemming.......

yes, that works because you trade some alt for speed, you close the gap, get close enough for a shot, pull up and shoot, but when you get back to your original alt, you're going slower than you were, correct? you close the gap because you've increased speed. energy doesn't mean anything in that situation, all you want is to close the distance, so it's a great trick.


as for the hurri, yes it should be getting the pony to turn with it, but do you disagree that it should be going up and trying to equalise E, going on the offensive and trying to sucker him in for the kill?