Author Topic: one 4 the learners #2 (Read 1836 times)

LYNX · « **on:** April 25, 2007, 10:47:35 AM »

Name this maneuver (centre picture).

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What purpose did it serve?
What would you now do if you was the P51?

P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC

ghi · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2007, 10:54:23 AM »

Edwards AFB:

SkatSr or Steve at reentry !

LYNX · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2007, 11:01:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ghi
Edwards AFB:

SkatSr or Steve at reentry !

yes ....very good.

But back on topic. Perhaps we can get some of our learners to pick up the baton and get into the mind set of the situation presented.

croduh · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2007, 11:02:24 AM »

That was a split-s, hmk nicely evaded, but very close, if i were in the pony, i would have chopped throttle and pulled my nose down a bit more and fire.

Ghastly · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2007, 11:25:31 AM »

No, you got it wrong - you're looking at it from the wrong direction. It's the classic HOFBLO maneuver.

The Hurri2C started out low, and pulled up into a vertical HO attempt when he saw the 51 coming in on him. He managed to get his nose around, but couldn't quite land the shot. The 51 zoomed past and is now continuing to build speed for his run for home. Meanwhile, the Hurri pilot has rolled wings level and is waiting for his opportunity to repeat the HOFLBO maneuver in case the Pony driver realizes that there's no other threat for 7.5 sectors around, and turns back.

As I said, the classic "Head On From Below".

Max · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2007, 11:25:54 AM »

If I'm the Pony I'd execute a hi yo-yo.

TinmanX · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:01:58 PM »

Split Esse.

51... Well, A Split Esse is an E killer so even a flat turn here would do, but I agree with Max. I'd do a Yo-Yo, though personally I'd go Low-Yo-Yo to try and drop out of sight. High Yo-Yo would work too but the Hurri is always going to be able to turn in and even with a low Yo-Yo the Pony is going to have enough E to zoom up and away if he does. The low yo-yo though offers the chance of the Hurri losing sight of me altogether and having to perform some "blind" evasives.

BlauK · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:53:47 PM »

Too much compression in the jpg file

Major Biggles · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:10:39 PM »

the hurri pulled a split S to avoid the BnZ attack of the high, fast pony. pulling this maneuver is a great way to avoid such a threat, but it doesn't give you an offensive position afterwards, so it's much more of a defensive maneuver than a reversal. in essence, the hurri just signed his own death certificate if the pony driver is any good.

all pony need to is keep his E advantage by pulling a wide immelman and drop down on the now low and fairly slow hurri (split S wastes a lot of E).

a better way of avoiding this attack, but also leaving you in a position to equalise E states and take a pop at the pony would be a high break turn. given closure rates, this would make you hard to hit, while also gaining you E (alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does). after he passes try to climb to him, otherwise he will be out of reach

Simaril · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2007, 02:48:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Major Biggles
(alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does)....

Good advice on the move -- but a quibble here about energy. Am I correct in remembering that energy is proportional to velocity squared times potential energy (alt)?

Read that somewhere on the boards, and kinda remembering it was from HT himself.

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2007, 02:52:48 PM »

what biggles said.

basically the hurri was pulling a last ditch evasive with no hope of making it more than an evasive.

pony is laughing and if it was me the hurri would be dead within another 30 seconds.

LYNX · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2007, 03:23:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Major Biggles
the hurri pulled a split S to avoid the BnZ attack of the high, fast pony. pulling this maneuver is a great way to avoid such a threat, but it doesn't give you an offensive position afterwards, so it's much more of a defensive maneuver than a reversal. in essence, the hurri just signed his own death certificate if the pony driver is any good.

all pony need to is keep his E advantage by pulling a wide immelman and drop down on the now low and fairly slow hurri (split S wastes a lot of E).

a better way of avoiding this attack, but also leaving you in a position to equalise E states and take a pop at the pony would be a high break turn. given closure rates, this would make you hard to hit, while also gaining you E (alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does). after he passes try to climb to him, otherwise he will be out of reach

You are correct. It's a split esse and in this situation being zoomed by the higher faster con, is a defensive maneuver. However, the rest is just plain WRONG. You are 180 degree wrong with your concept of "E".

1) Split esse gains "E"
2) A high brake turn blows "E"

Sorry mate. Marking your paper with a D. You can transfere ALT for "E" and "E" for ALT but the laws of phyisic don't allow you to transfere "E" for ALT & E.

Morpheus · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2007, 03:31:48 PM »

depending on my speed if i was the hurri i woudl have pulled up and over to force over shot but giving the illusion to the pony that he had a shot on me whilst making him follow me part way through my turn before he over shot to burn some of his E. If I didn't have a shot as he went by, it would be rinse and repeat. That is how i made a living in the 38 or other slower planes such as spit5 but works great in any fighter if you know what you are doing and with a little adjustment here and there for each individual fighter.

split s, if thats what that was, can't tell because there is no hurri in the pic, is a last ditch resort deffence manuver. Works nice, but gives you nothing in return for offence.

i have some good films of levi doing similar tactics for over shot as well as my own up on my site somewhere if you can find them.

Ghastly · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2007, 03:45:59 PM »

All joking about HO'ing aside, Major Biggles is essentially correct - he is just (very appropriately) looking at the bigger picture. If you think of the maneuver as a single component in an engagement which is a series of maneuvers, and view it in terms of the RELATIVE energy state after maneuvering for the Hurricane pilot, a high break turn would CONSERVE more of the Hurricane's current energy than the split-esse that is shown. (This is what he was referring to, if you read it more carefully.)

The trade-off for the high break turn over the split-esse is that the split-esse is going to be almost "idiot proof" and virtually guarantee success for at least one maneuver - by which time the situation may have changed. The high break turn is much harder to time especially for someone who's not skilled in BOTH aircraft involved, and if you misjudge lag and/or relative speed and maneuverability, you are one flaming Hurricane.

Another defensive maneuver for the skilled pilot would be the defensive barrel roll, which while even harder to time properly, if done successfully will leave the IIC with a very good - perhaps even excellent - shot opportunity after the overshoot. The trade-off here is that it's even more risky than a break turn if you misjudge it.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2007, 04:00:56 PM »

Looks like a big "k" to me. I bet it was followed by an "f" then a "c".