Author Topic: one 4 the learners #2  (Read 1677 times)

Offline clerick

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2007, 05:52:48 PM »
wouldnt the pony have been better off pulling an immel or a high yo-yo, trading back some speed for more E AND gaining a better position over the hurri who is by now slow?

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2007, 05:53:55 PM »
E is not just speed. what we all need to be clear on, and biggles' main point highlights it, is that a Split-S does infact waste Energy. It gains speed but throws away altitude, in short. now what biggles is describing is not blowing E at all, but using every last horse in the little hurri2c to provide a shot oppertunity and possibly enough to scre the P51 away for 2 mins.

now the flip side of this, in my mind, is that infact a Split S will gain you an Energy Adantage if, and only if the P51 banks round hard and follows you down.
 lets say the P51's first pass was co altitude, at around 400mph, the hurricane at 270mph flying level untill the moment when the spit S was forced to avoid being shot. that is a last minute evasive, no matter if planned or on reflex. should the p51 bank hard and try to follow you down, the average pilot at 400mph will probably burn down to 300mph easily before diving after the hurri, who is now going 300 mph also in a steep dive, giving chances for reversals, snapshot, scissors, whatever, untill the pony figures hes in trouble and runs along, which wouldnt be difficult unless he really commited to turn fight.
 So, yes the split S has given you an E advantage by the errors of the opposition.

now, if i am correct, what biggles is suggesting is to start exactly the same cycle for the first pass. the pony and hurri co-alt again, pony is 3.0k behind  at 400mph and the 270mph hurri starts a shallow dives up to 300mph, the P51 follows gaining even more speed.
 right as the dive acceleration on the hurricane maxes out, preferably you would time this for the moment the p51 lines up his shot at 500yrds, is the moment to pull your move and make a shot.

why waste time draggin the pony lower in the split-s unless its a last minute evasive when you can just as easily do the same moves from a 'give yer tail' tail merge.

amazing how many fast plane flyers will **** up on the first attack if you bait them right from 6.0k icon range. not nearly so many will make a mistake on the second attack.

S!
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Offline TequilaChaser

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2007, 05:59:39 PM »
no, I do not disagree,  going up was an available option, although it was not taken.......

LYNX asked specific question, so I answered them as precise as i could with what I  see, that was already done....


if you can and you have the speed to go up, then yes go up.......although don't do it textbook........( meaning same thing always, every fight is different and the movements of attack/counter/recounter  should be fluid and dynamic forever changing in relation to that particular fight , guess what I am saying is yes is good to go up, but then again it is good to go down sometimes, and heck maybe even sideways ;)   )

there is so many UNKNOWN variables in this simple screenshot , that really opens the door for a flood of differing opinions.......

LYNX, sorry that a bunch of old seasoned players  keep spamming your tactical questions for new learners/players..........but please keep them coming they are fun.......

and as for the "simple screenshots"  they are good for making people think and help people to learn how to read the situation at a glance, but also might be good to have little short video clips or shot ah film clips to help further, like right before the merge  until the fight is done or little clips of each individual merge/reversal....
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2007, 06:02:13 PM »
just for the record i wasnt aiming my post at anyone, simply trying to make the mole hill biggles started that got blown into a mountain, back into a mole hill.

i think the thread is informative and a good read.

 especially my posts.
:D
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Offline clerick

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2007, 06:08:05 PM »
My posts were longer AND had formulas.  NEENER!

Offline TequilaChaser

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2007, 06:10:30 PM »
I was trying to keep it simple....the KISS theory....for the one 4 the learners #2 thread.........:p
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2007, 06:15:45 PM »
i dont have the math skills to use how ever you spell the plural of forumla, im more of a freestyle skateboarding type dude who either lands something sick or breaks his arms :)
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Offline Major Biggles

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2007, 06:18:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
just for the record i wasnt aiming my post at anyone, simply trying to make the mole hill biggles started that got blown into a mountain, back into a mole hill.

i think the thread is informative and a good read.

 especially my posts.
:D



i always seem to do that :rolleyes:

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Offline Simaril

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2007, 06:19:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Major Biggles
... you close the gap because you've increased speed. energy doesn't mean anything in that situation, all you want is to close the distance, so it's a great trick....



Absolutely important point if you're thinking in energy terms. Took me a long while to learn this, and again it was Badboy's Pursuit article at SimHQ that made it clear.


Simple answer -- IF YOU BURN E TO GET THE KILL, YOU WON.


From an energy retention standpoint, the dive to build speed clearly loses energy. But, the don't forget -- the goal of E fighting is NOT to retain E. It is to kill the enemy!

And that's why this is a good move. The example that led me to the Badboy article happened about a year or so ago. I was in a Tempest and found a higher Nik engaging me from the long high 6. I went into a shallow climb, knowing that would eventually give me the energy advantage over the ultimately slower nik -- but the nik dove more aggressively than I expected, converting his alt into speed that he used to close on my plane from the low 6. I kept waiting for my engine power to outpace him, but he kept getting closer until I had to dive some to keep separation.

That frustrated me, because I knew that I should have been increasing my energy advantage.... and I was! But I had forgotten the real goal of the fight, killing before being killed.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 06:22:20 PM by Simaril »
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Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2007, 06:19:54 PM »
its not you biggles, its everyone else, and everone else can say the same about everyone else..
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Offline clerick

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one 4 the learners #2
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2007, 06:20:49 PM »
formulas is just as acceptable as formulae. so stick that in your pipeses and smoke it! :D

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2007, 06:32:48 PM »
people ask why spend so much money smoking just to shorten your life,  i always figured its still cheaper than a pension and stick at it you wont need the pension anyhow. even so i may have to decline your kind pipe smokage offer and go sort out those muppets at the dictionary who cant decide which way to spell formulii one way or the other.
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Offline clerick

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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2007, 06:37:28 PM »
i hates those formuleces to pieces

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2007, 06:42:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LYNX
Sorry mate.  Marking your paper with a D.  You can transfere ALT for "E" and "E" for ALT but the laws of phyisic don't allow you to transfere "E" for ALT & E.


Sorry but you're wrong.

E is the combined state of kinetic energy (speed) and potential energy (alt).  Either form of energy can be traded for the other maintaining the same overall energy state, therefore, you can transfer alt for SPEED or SPEED for alt but you can't transfer speed for alt and speed.

[EDIT]  Subject to some potential marginal loss due to gravity and/or friction/drag.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 06:48:32 PM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Major Biggles

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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2007, 06:47:12 PM »
baldeagl is right. imagine lynx that you are flying at 10k at 300 mph

you dive to 5k and are now flying at 550mph. your energy level is exactly the same as it was before though (ideal world physics). in actual fact you'd have lost a bit of E because of drag, but lets forget about that.

simple fact is that speed and alt are joined. the energy level is exactly the same at 10k and 5k. E consists of both alt and E ;)

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