The underlying problem with politics in the US

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Most of the prison systems in this country are a sham.

Prisoners have more rights than guards.  They live better than people below the poverty level that are trying to make good.  They are treated as though they are special with all their wonderous benefits.  What we really need to do is hire the sheriff in Arizona that has the tent city jail.  His percentage of repeat offenders is very low, because the prisoners work, live in tents, and have no benefits like television for that matter.  Unfortunately the "nanny state" will not allow that.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but I would say that if we're going to be sending drug addicts to these places, we might as well start shipping off everyone with an STD or cancer as well.

Drug use might start off as a crime, but there does come a point where it is very much an illness.

There was, once, a lot of good in many of these people.  A different approach and they might just turn out to be some of our most upstanding citizens.  Many certainly know what living at the bottom feels like.  Kind of like their own personal Great Depression.

Throwing them in prison is just a giant waste of everyone's time and money, and, unless you're a socialist, there really isn't any way to pay for anything else without legalizing the very drugs that would send them to rehab.  This way at least they're paying their own way, albeit in a roundabout manner.

I think I'm going to stop hijacking your thread now, though.  Sorry, just a subtopic I have a lot of experience with as of late.  I'll save the rest for the next drug thread

[Bodhi]

I agree with you.  The addicts (while they do create a demand) are not the underlying problem.  Dealers, trafficers, and production are the priamary problem.  Start locking those people up for real prison terms, and their might just be a difference over the long term.  As for addicts, if you are caught buying, then mandatory drug treatment, and a prison sentence for however long society deems it.  2nd offense gets you rehab again and a longer prison sentence.  3rd time, sorry, you are in rehab again and back to prison.

[moot]

Bodhi, Arpajo is not the kind of guy you would want to have in charge.  He is no less corrupt than the politicians everyone is sick of in most threads here.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Bodhi
I agree with you.  The addicts (while they do create a demand) are not the underlying problem.  Dealers, traffickers, and production are the priamary problem.  Start locking those people up for real prison terms, and their might just be a difference over the long term.  As for addicts, if you are caught buying, then mandatory drug treatment, and a prison sentence for however long society deems it.  2nd offense gets you rehab again and a longer prison sentence.  3rd time, sorry, you are in rehab again and back to prison.

Start locking them up?... we have been by the thousands and it accomplishes zero. I worked a multi agency "narc" unit, we made a lot of arrests, put peeps in stir and took a few expensive items via asset seizure... nothing changed.

Take a dealer to jail, another takes his place.. we could have taken the whole block to jail and they'd still be dealers there the next day. Sending them to prison is equal to a free ride scholarship at "Criminal College" where professors of deviant behavior preach to eager pupils... and believe it or not the drugs available in prison are often better than street quality, they sneak in smaller more pure amounts.

The War on drugs is a failed big gov policy that repubs and Dems are too scared to tackle, forget the fact its failing to curb drug use / sales... heck weed is the "biggest" cash crop in California... all of our rights have been eroded and we've criminals out of non violet people looking for a buzz.

Vote in a handful of  Independent thinkers who are not party slaves, people that can at least address issues, such as this, with fresh ideas and common sense.. rather than the preferred method of the loser chickenspackle repubs & Dems who are way too scared of losing "team points" for trying something new... they'd rather line up in lock step like clones to support a failed policy than fix it.

Here's my new group:
http://leap.cc/
Law Enforcement against prohibition; retired cops, DAs, DEA, FBI, judges who have "been there done that" fighting the drug war who have personally witnessed with intimate detail our failed drug policy.

[Vudak]

Interesting site, xmarine...  I'll send it to a few friends

[Bodhi]

I do not agree Xmarine.

Drugs are a scourge on society.  We need to change the prisons and the way people are incarcarated.  Stop allowing these prisoners to have benefits, and make them work to grow their own food and pay for the cost of their incarcaration.  

I would be willing to see Marijuana legalised and regulated by the government like cigarettes.

As for the war on drugs being a waste, I agree.  It is being fought poorly organised and is amongst a mass group of poorly managed programs and agencys across the board, both state and fed.  It needs to be changed significantly and switftly.  Unfortunately it is probably going to remain the same until the Government changes.  That I am afraid is not going to happen until some pretty catastrophic events happen and then, all bets are off that the country will even survive intact.

[Xargos]

We are not guards, we are C/Os.  

And there are more drugs in prison then there is on the street.

[TracerX]

Originally posted by Bodhi
What we really need to do is hire the sheriff in Arizona that has the tent city jail.  His percentage of repeat offenders is very low, because the prisoners work, live in tents, and have no benefits like television for that matter.  

Sherriff Joe is great.  He treats prisoners like they should be treated.  He often says his goal is to make sure his prisoners never come back.  If you want freedom to be worth something, the absence of freedoms should not be made out to be a picknick.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Bodhi
I do not agree Xmarine.

Drugs are a scourge on society.  We need to change the prisons and the way people are incarcarated.  Stop allowing these prisoners to have benefits, and make them work to grow their own food and pay for the cost of their incarcaration.  

I would be willing to see Marijuana legalised and regulated by the government like cigarettes.

As for the war on drugs being a waste, I agree.  It is being fought poorly organised and is amongst a mass group of poorly managed programs and agencys across the board, both state and fed.  It needs to be changed significantly and switftly.  Unfortunately it is probably going to remain the same until the Government changes.  That I am afraid is not going to happen until some pretty catastrophic events happen and then, all bets are off that the country will even survive intact.

Its none of your business if we drink beer & smoke cigarettes at home, just like it would be none of your business if we legally purchased an opiate / stimulant beverage... why would you care? as a free adult I'm allowed abuse myself if I so choose.

I'm allowed to legally purchase lethal amount of alcohol and drink myself to death, or smoke till my lungs turn black... but I shouldn't be allowed to do these other things because somebody in the gov says their bad.

These drug laws operation under the supposition people are so weak, stupid and unable to control themselves that should opiate / stimulant beverages become legal, millions of zombie junkies would result... is that the case with addictive drugs like alcohol & nicotine?  

Last time you took a few of prescription pain pills, did you become an addicted junky caving in the heads of old ladies to support your habit?.. probably not because unlike someone on the street looking for a buzz who gets home cooked concoctions, you got a gov regulated dosage / purity.

[moot]

Sheriff Joe's traffic patrols are systematically pains in the ass. Sheriff Joe had a pretty much innocent football player inmate killed in his facilities, in his presence.. Tips of the iceberg by all accounts.
No one I've ever heard talk about Sheriff Joe's had something good to say..  A few of them were nearly indifferent, but none of them favorable to him.
I also knew a particularly misanthropic taekwondo teacher that (surprisingly enough) got along with Joe like giddy schoolgirls.

[lazs2]

even if the government legalized drugs... they would do it in such a way that the drug dealer would not be endangered..

They would restrict and nanny and tax to the point that most people would simply buy their drugs from a dealer rather than the hassle of the government..  Hell... they get all worked up about smoking and too much fat fer chrisakes...

So long as we live in a nanny state we better keep building more and more prisons to house more and more of the population.

We could call em gulags.

lazs

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by lazs2
even if the government legalized drugs... they would do it in such a way that the drug dealer would not be endangered..

They would restrict and nanny and tax to the point that most people would simply buy their drugs from a dealer rather than the hassle of the government..  Hell... they get all worked up about smoking and too much fat fer chrisakes...

So long as we live in a nanny state we better keep building more and more prisons to house more and more of the population.

We could call em gulags.

lazs

If corporations were purchasing opiates / stimulants from the farmers / producers, what motivation would there be to sell to dealers? the only reason illegal drugs carry the price tag they do is due to the risk and inefficient chain of supply, are there any illegal alcohol / tobacco dealers still offering home cooked alternatives?

If I could purchase a pack of 20 weed smokes for lets say as much as $15 @ .5G per cigarette, why would I go purchase an 1/8th from my old dealer for $70?

The drug companies already offer 'legal" opiates / stimulants to the market (prescription pain / diet pills) which is why a bottle of 100 750mg Vicodens (opiate) that will last a few weeks, are a heck of a lot cheaper than scoring a hit of heroine (opiate) that will last a few hours.

Some dude looking for an opiate high on the street usually gets somewhere around 20 to 30 times the amount of drug he needs for a "buzz", hardcore addiction comes very easy at these amounts to where people commit crimes to avoid withdrawals.... sometimes just a few hits.

OTOH it takes a little effort to become addicted to legal pain pills, taking them daily for weeks usually only results in minor withdrawals, such as a runny nose, insomnia, jitters.. not exactly worth rolling a few old ladies over.

Would allowing adults over 21 to purchase a 6 pack of opiate brew that packs the kick of 3 or 4 Vicodens really cause the downfall of western civilization the legalization crowd claims to see in their crystal balls? a desperate hype can go to 7-11, buy a case of opiate brew and drink till hes buzzed for 1/4 the cost of buying it illegally.

Employers would still be free to drug test, existing laws regarding felony public stupidity while under the influence still apply.

BTW have you guys even considered how much more police work would be done catching violent rapists, car thieves, molesters et al?; rather than playing an endless game of "whack-a-mole" with the dealers / users, cops could be hunting down burglars, rapists, child molesters and car thieves... unlike drug dealers these guys cant continue their trade while locked up... but drug dealers can and do.

[soda72]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
the only reason illegal drugs carry the price tag they do is due to the risk and inefficient chain of supply, are there any illegal alcohol / tobacco dealers still offering home cooked alternatives?

Moonshine (sometimes known as Poitín, mooney, moon, creek water, hooch, Portuguese grape juice, white lightning, and many others)

[lazs2]

xmarine...  some drugs would be sold to the big companies who would produce a superior product...  but... it would be very pricey.   Drugs can be grown and made from chemicals that are obtainable here and... for cheap... drugs will be stolen from the manufacturers and sold for half the price of government blessed ones because they won't have the taxes on em.    There is a huge stolen cigg industry for instance and moonshine for another.

High taxation creates crime.

If drugs stay expensive.. addicts and kids will still break into your house and car to pay for em.

lazs