Flaps in the turn fight?

[zlehmann]

ive been reading alot about the use of your flaps in the turning fights and stuff and was wondering if someone could elaborate on what you put your flaps down for and when? ive tried a few times but i end up stalling out and half the time im moving too fast to deploy flaps...any help is great thanks!

[Yknurd]

Flaps are usefull for taking off on a carrier.  Or landing for that matter.

I use a notch or two for landings at airfields.  Lowered flaps, chopped throttle = quicker stop.  I'm a geek and even work my rudder back and forth on the runway for additional drag.

If I find myself trying to turn my F4F with a A6M (not that I really want to) then I'll dump several notches of flaps.

If a con is on your six and you cannot out-maneouver them, then try to force a very, very slow overshoot...drop flaps and chop throttle.

Dropping flaps (if you are going slow enough) for sissors or barrel rolls can force overshoots.

And last, but certainly not least, if you find yourself in a turn fight with the same plane as you are flying, then flaps can give you the edge to out turn them and get the shot.

Also note that trimming the elevators will also give you the edge in a turn fight.  One German ace actually flew this way all the time.

Hope this helps.

[Traveler]

Flaps, flowered, slotted and the rest were designed for one purpose and one purpose alone.  That is to allow the pilot to increase his angle of decent without increasing his airspeed, period.   As in during an  approach to landing.

Combat flaps came about because it was noticed that when flaps were deployed it allowed the pilot to increase the angle of attack (AOA) without stalling and falling out of the air.  In a turn fight it’s all about AOA and relative wind (RW).  

RW in a perfect world would always strike head on to and follow the cord line of the wing from the leading edge on back to the trailing edge.  Put a good for nothing pilot in the cockpit pushing and pulling on the stick, that AOA starts to move all over the place followed by the RW not flowing so smoothly from leading edge to trailing edge.  You get laminar airflow interruption (the airflow separates from the wing) and lose of lift, that thing that makes you clime and turn.

Putting out flaps at an air speed that allow you to put down flaps will increase the wing area and allow for a higher AOA to occur before you get airflow separation.  You can roll into a turn and increase the mount of life the wing is generating (tighten the trun) by increasing the AOA (pulling back on the stick).

P51 has the first 10% of flaps as Combat flaps.  You can deploy them up to an indicated 350mph.  The P38 allows you to put down the first notch of flaps at 250 MPH indicated.

Of course with all these flaps hanging out and these high AOA’s the prudent pilot will keep in mind that at some point in the slowing down process additional power perhaps, lots of it, will be needed or as you have found out the stall will happen.

Hope this helps

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Yknurd
Also note that trimming the elevators will also give you the edge in a turn fight.

Umm.  No.

Originally posted by hitech
The only time trim would help your turn rate is if your stick is already full back, and you still need more elevator. This would only be the case at higher speeds in some planes where you can not exert enof stick force.

[Yknurd]

OH MY GOD.  I WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I'LL NEVER SHOW MY FACE HERE AGAIN!!!

I QUIT!!!!!!!ONE

[duddini]

My question is (I'm a newbie with 3 weeks under my belt) that in a Nikki you have to be less than 200 mph (even less speed in a Zero) to deploy flaps. This seems very slow for a fight, I've read elsewhere here that "speed is survival" or something to that effect. Is use of flaps, and therefore slow speed, only for "latch ditch" situations ??
  I use full flaps to help me land, but mainly because I suk

[The Fugitive]

Originally posted by Yknurd
OH MY GOD.  I WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I'LL NEVER SHOW MY FACE HERE AGAIN!!!

I QUIT!!!!!!!ONE

Well I'm glad HE'S gone !!!:D

dudini, check out some of the films in Murdrs signature. Its an easy thing to get my 38 under 100 in a good turn fight or in a rope. Speed is life, but some times ya just don't have it and need to try something else.

Flaps are great to add just a bit more lift to your wings when you are pushing the envolope. Keeping that little bit of lift on your wings might be enough to roll over and kill the guy stalling under you.

On the other hand flying with deployed flaps really kills your "E", so get them out to help in your turn, then get them back in as quick as you can.

[Murdr]

It depends on the design of the plane.  The flaps change the shape of the wing in a way that adds lift, lowers stall speed, and adds drag.  All of these are desirable when landing.

Light weight, highly maneuverable and stable fighters would have no use for flaps at higher speeds.

Heavier airframe with high wingloading could benefit from the effects of flaps at higher speeds.  Some planes were designed to have low angle flap settings with this in mind.

Generally speaking, if your maneuvering is being limited by G's you have no need for flap deployment.  If your maneuvering is being limited by stall conditions, you might benefit by deploying flaps, but at the cost of additional drag.  Anything in between those two where you are too fast to deploy flaps is a design limitation of your plane.

[Yknurd]

Okay, trim will help you with compression though.  P-38's and 109's look here.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by duddini
My question is (I'm a newbie with 3 weeks under my belt) that in a Nikki you have to be less than 200 mph (even less speed in a Zero) to deploy flaps. This seems very slow for a fight, I've read elsewhere here that "speed is survival" or something to that effect. Is use of flaps, and therefore slow speed, only for "latch ditch" situations ??
  I use full flaps to help me land, but mainly because I suk

I use full flaps for every landing so that's not a dweeby thing to do... it's the right thing.

Speed isn't always survival.  Often a fight will degenerate to a true "stall fight" at speeds as low as 80 mph indicated (or less) and it's the guy who can maintain manouverability with the stall buzzer howling that's going to win.  Well within the range where flaps will deploy (usually around 150 for most planes, much higher in some).

Using flaps will usually tighten your turn radius but may also decrease speed to the point that making a full 180 degree turn actually takes longer even though the turn is tighter.

The plane makes a big diference in whether or not you want to use flaps.  For the most part in Spits with two settings (full up and full down) you won't want to use them but in an F4U with five settings and flaps that will deploy at 300 mph or so they allow you to increase instantaneous turn rate to track a target while still other planes, like the P-38's for example, seem get over the top better with a notch of flaps.  Most people who use flaps deploy them for a moment to help track a target, slow down, get over the top, avoid a stall or for some other purpose then pull them right back in while others depending on the plane leave them out most of the time (KI-84's for example seem to like flaps out).

It all depends on what you're flying and what you're doing with it.  I'd suggest experimenting to see what works with your plane and style.  There is no one size fits all when it comes to flap use except for landing.

[Eagler]

if it is a good t&b fight, I will have the stall buzzer in my ear almost the entire time ..
during that time both flaps and manual trim help .. as does throttle and wep

[SgtPappy]

first you have to know what all the different flap types are like. The regular slotted flaps are used by planes like the F4U Corsair and the P-51 Mustang. These are literally a part of the trailing edge of the wing, and they (for the lack of a better word) bend downwards changing the shape of the wing as Murdr stated. This changes the AoA and causes a higher lift co efficient. This helps out in instantaneous turning and to an extent, in sustained turning. There is a cost in drag, however. Dropping the flaps too much consequently causes a drag-lift co-efficient ratio with waaay too much drag so you end up turning uber slow with your nose pointed up high.

Then the enemy just ends up not necessarily outturning you, but turning FASTER.

The next type of flap is the split flap, which the Tempest, Hurricane and Spitfire uses. For the Spitfire and Hurricane (in real life), the flaps are of dual stages. Up (0 degrees deflection) and down (50 degrees deflection). These flaps don't really change the shape of the wing too much and they seem to be less efficient in raising the lift co-efficient without a higher cost in drag than the slotted flaps, but they do cause speed to drop uber quickly. When i used to fly the Spitfire, i'd use these split flaps as brakes and then quickly flip the plane over in the loop, though the F4U seems much better at that than the Spitfire, what with its speed brakes and all

The last, most complicated and (usually) the heaviest flap system is the Folwer flap, probably named after some awesome dude whose last name was Folwer. Anyway, these flaps are usually like split flaps, but don't just extend downward, but rear-wards as well. They end up giving more wing area with a very small amount of drag. The P-38 is fitted with this as is the Ki-84.

Now, Zlehmann, your La-7 is fitted with the multi-stage split flap, which opens up at around 165 mph methinks. They're useful when in dogfights actually. When at the top of loops and slow, you can drop a notch or two to get you flipping over quickly and hammer on top of your enemy. If you want to cause an overshoot, go right ahead, though i doubt experienced F4U and P-38 pilots can get overshot by an La-7. I also find split flaps useful when im really low on speed, but diving BUT still slow enough to drop flaps. At that instant, i'll drop a notch or two and i can follow an enemy for a few more precious seconds. But hey, you can pretty much run away, come back and HO like most La-7's do lol.

http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule4.html#flaps

[SuperDud]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I use full flaps for every landing so that's not a dweeby thing to do... it's the right thing.

Speed isn't always survival.  Often a fight will degenerate to a true "stall fight" at speeds as low as 80 mph indicated (or less) and it's the guy who can maintain manouverability with the stall buzzer howling that's going to win.  Well within the range where flaps will deploy (usually around 150 for most planes, much higher in some).

Using flaps will usually tighten your turn radius but may also decrease speed to the point that making a full 180 degree turn actually takes longer even though the turn is tighter.

The plane makes a big diference in whether or not you want to use flaps.  For the most part in Spits with two settings (full up and full down) you won't want to use them but in an F4U with five settings and flaps that will deploy at 300 mph or so they allow you to increase instantaneous turn rate to track a target while still other planes, like the P-38's for example, seem get over the top better with a notch of flaps.  Most people who use flaps deploy them for a moment to help track a target, slow down, get over the top, avoid a stall or for some other purpose then pull them right back in while others depending on the plane leave them out most of the time (KI-84's for example seem to like flaps out).

It all depends on what you're flying and what you're doing with it.  I'd suggest experimenting to see what works with your plane and style.  There is no one size fits all when it comes to flap use except for landing.

Good info here. Do you want to be the guy who once he runs outta steam is an easy target? Or do you want to be able to see a high con coming in and realize you still have a chance? Learn to twist and turn that plane at slow speeds and you've truely mastered it. Anyone can fly a yak at 400mph, see how they do at 100.

[FBplmmr]

i like flaps.. i fly the f6f ..alot..its a blue plane:p














it needs a cupholder:(

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by duddini
My question is (I'm a newbie with 3 weeks under my belt) that in a Nikki you have to be less than 200 mph (even less speed in a Zero) to deploy flaps. This seems very slow for a fight, I've read elsewhere here that "speed is survival" or something to that effect. Is use of flaps, and therefore slow speed, only for "latch ditch" situations ??
  I use full flaps to help me land, but mainly because I suk

Depends on what planes you are flying too.

If you've got a B&Z (Boom and Zoom) plane making high speed slashing attacks, flaps will be of little use most of the time.  Unless you find yourself in a vertical or slow speed fight, don't worry about flaps.  P-38 would be a good exception to the rule here.

If you are flying a Turn and Burn (T&B), or one of the better stall-fighters, then flaps become very important.  Zeke's and Spits come to mind here.  I fly Ki-84's as my choice of T&B/vert fighter, and they have an even slower speed requirement to drop flaps than most.

Flaps are for slow speed and high angle of attack (steep climb) maneuvers. There are also some times and planes where you can drop the landing gears in a combat maneuver to quickly scrub off speed.