Something to do after bail?

[folkwufe]

why does everyone get so mad because someone has an idea!?!? if you dont like you coul post somethin like "i dont like it", plain and simple... not rip the poor guy apart. And if your the 30th guy to post something negative, try to refrain from doing so... the thread maker has already got the message.

[Cirro]

I agree Folkwufe,

Seems that the senior posters have no time for ideas from
a person with 3 posts, when it could be a simple case of only posting
when you have something intelligent to offer, instead of jumping on
the keyboard to trash someone everytime they don't like what they read
or want to argue with someone. That will get you up to 9500 posts fast in this place.

BTW everyone...I like the Rescue idea.

[Larry]

Or mabey you guys that have less then 5 posts think and use the search button before you post. Stop posting every stupid idea that pops into your head. If you don't know this Aces High is a WWII combat sim that is mostly air combat not some FPS.

[LTCClark]

I feel that the most that people would like, is the ability to get into a friedlies vehicle, or even an aircraft that is capable of picking one up if they are shot down.

It would enhance the game as well as provide the user with a choice of what to do after bailing out.

1. End Mission
2. Bail out, and hit the ground, and spot targets or bring in arty from Cruiser
3. Bail out, in hopes of being rescued, and evade the enemy.

The reality is, is that people do like the idea,  and it is not inteded to become a first person shooter game, but to allow the person to choose, as well as squaddies and other friendlies to perform rescue missions, as well as fight for your fellow teammates.

Right now, if someone gets shot down, everyone around that person, are like end mission ASAP, and re-up.  But if you were on the ground, and the enemy knew it. it makes the fight more interesting then becuase Enemy GV's as well as aircraft will watch to see you bail, and then the fight goes over you.  

In other words, a person bails and requests rescue, enemy GV's and Aircraft move to intercept and take out the forces that are trying to protect their own.  It makes for a really great fight.

even though it has already been stated that people sit in the runway and shoot aircraft in the cockpit with the .45 that you have when you bail.

And as far as all of the posters trashing this idea, think about this.  

Didnt your mamma ever tell you, that if you dont have anything nice to say then dont say nothin.

Dont trash someone just becuase they have an idea, instead make concise gestures in why it would be a bad idea, in your opinion, and we all have them.

Who knows, you may even like the idea of being rescued, as well as it

[tedrbr]

There are problems with this Rescue Me idea addition to the game.

#1:  Abuse and Grief.  The guy that claims he needs rescued, but in reality is just pulling your leg to have you run around uselessly for a while.  You go out and no one is there, or worse, the 'downed' pilot is a shade account and he's just set up up for his 'prime' account.

#2: Historical accuracy.  HTC tries to stay within shouting distance of WWII history, and simple fact is, you did not have pilots being rescued by other pilots generally.   They were picked up by GROUND TROOPS, either friendly (send them back to the rear) or enemy (send them to POW camp), or occasionally by members of the resistance and smuggled out.  The kind of Air Rescues you folks are arguing for didn't start becoming common until the Korean War and introduction of the helicopter, and even more common and famous in Vietnam.  AHII is a game representation of WW2, not the game version of BAT21 or Bridges of Toko Ri .  There was no big effort to recover downed pilots behind enemy lines in WWII.  It was up to the officers to escape, evade, and return to friendly lines.

#3 "People want it" argument.  There are people that want fission bombs in the game, doesn't make it a good idea.  There are those that want to get rid of ENY and perk costs for planes too.  

#4 "Save points argument".  You want those points bad enough, get back to base and put it on the runway.  Earn them, don't depend on others to get you back when you screw up.  You get partial points for bails, ditches, and so forth.  You want all the points and the bonus; get back to base.

#5 Endless whining on Country Channel to "pick me up!"  The Gunnery calls are bad enough, this would get ridiculous, which would be compounded by point #1 above.

[Iron_Cross]

Originally posted by AKDogg
well, I think should happen is if u bail u have to ride it out.  I mean the chute should open up automatically.  Reason, to get rid of the bombers who drop there bombs on a target and then bail out just say they can reup again.  To me that is gaming the game and I seeing it happen more often then ever.  Fighters go up to get the bomber just to have the bomber bail out before they get to him and don't even get a kill on him.  That bothers me, lol.

The problem here is that there is absolutly NO perk bomber worth saving points for.  The Arado is practically useless, might as well take a Boston III up and save the points.  Hitech give us something worth while to spend bomber perks on, otherwise the bomb and bail crowd will grow larger.

[StuB]

Originally posted by tedrbr

#2: Historical accuracy.  HTC tries to stay within shouting distance of WWII history, and simple fact is, you did not have pilots being rescued by other pilots generally.   They were picked up by GROUND TROOPS, either friendly (send them back to the rear) or enemy (send them to POW camp), or occasionally by members of the resistance and smuggled out.  The kind of Air Rescues you folks are arguing for didn't start becoming common until the Korean War and introduction of the helicopter, and even more common and famous in Vietnam.  AHII is a game representation of WW2, not the game version of BAT21 or Bridges of Toko Ri .  There was no big effort to recover downed pilots behind enemy lines in WWII.  It was up to the officers to escape, evade, and return to friendly lines.

Are you so sure  tedrbr ?

Granted that most rescues were for pilots downed at sea or in theaters other than Europe, but they were carried out by any means possible.....

And why would you care if there were players who wanted to do rescue or artillery spotting/recon....or for that matter, why care about more GV'ers or boaters or people who just want to run around with a rifle?  They are just more targets to shoot up.....and they could very well mean more paying customers to keep your favorite sim in operation for years to come.

A quick search on the web found plenty of evidence that rescuing downed pilots both on land and at sea was a priority in World War 2:

http://www.usaaf.net/ww/vol4/vol4pg15.htm

"From D-day to D plus 9 a very cooperative and effective air-sea rescue service was maintained. Two corridors were established from D-day to D plus 2, and despite the fact that short notice was given for changes of time and route, this service provided facilities which resulted in the rescue of many of our personnel.

Naval control.--Naval equipment consisted of "R" motor launches, high-speed launches, and motor torpedo boats. It had been the common practice before narrow air corridors were adopted for air-sea rescue launches to carry out short patrols near their home bases, so as to be on immediate call for any emergency. This had proved efficient in the case of bombers returning from missions over the Continent, when they were not flying a predetermined course and were returning sporadically. However, before the airborne attack the suggestion was made to the naval authorities that, with 2 air corridors established, air-sea rescue launches be placed at irregular intervals along these routes. This idea was concurred in, and in the northern corridor alone 17 launches were so placed, with 10 in the much shorter southern lane.

The wisdom of this move was well demonstrated when the entire crew of a C-47 was forced to ditch on the return from Holland, and was picked up even before the aircraft had submerged. Because crews had been briefed that the air-sea rescue launches would be spaced along the corridors, they were able to ditch at points where rescue could quickly be effected. ON D plus 2, when weather over the sea was very bad and fog reduced visibility to about 1 mile, the plan again proved itself. Gliders were breaking tows in large numbers, yet one motor launch, stationed some 40 miles from the English coast, was able to pick up the entire crews of five gliders.

High-speed launches of air-sea rescue service spent 1,243 hours at sea.

Air Control.--Aircraft used in air-sea rescue included Spitfires and Walruses of ADGB, Hudsons and Warwicks of Coastal Command, and Thunderbolts of USAAF. Because of their long range and durability, the Warwicks and Hudsons were very usefully employed in flying alongside serials on their route out. They were thus able to plot and report the exact position of aircraft ditching, and to go to the crews' assistance when there were no rescue launches in the vicinity.. On the way back, with aircraft more spread out, this plan was less effective; it was at this stage that the Thunderbolts and Spitfires, able to cover a larger area in less time, proved of great value.

During the operation, 205 men were rescued from ditched aircraft and gliders.

The following figures give a summary of the patrols carried out by  air-sea rescue service:

Sorties by Spitfires and Walruses of ADGB 148
Long-range sorties by Warwicks and Hudsons of Coastal Command 20  
Sorties by Thunderbolts of USAAF 83
Total air sorties 251 "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Lysander

"In August 1941, a new squadron, No. 138 (Special Duties), was formed to undertake missions for the Special Operations Executive to maintain contact with the French Resistance. Among its aircraft were Lysander IIIs, which would fly over and land in France. While general supply drops could be left to the rest of No. 138's aircraft, the Lysander could insert agents on and off the continent, or bring back any downed allied aircrew who had been sheltered by the French. In this role, the Lysander proved to be outstanding"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Pararescue

"World War II
During the opening months of the war, there was very little need for air rescue. American forces were in retreat or consolidating their positions and most long-range flying was limited. As the war progressed and American airmen began flying missions that would cover hundreds - and sometimes thousands - of miles, air rescue began to play a key role.

Rescue units were formed around the globe under the operational control of local commanders. While training, techniques and equipment varied, one rule was constant: "Rescue forces must presume survivors in each crash until proved otherwise."

Search and rescue of downed aviators in the continental United States fell primarily to the Civil Air Patrol, a civilian aviation group under the command of the Army Air Corps. The CAP would usually send in ground crews after locating a crash site; however, they would sometimes land small aircraft and they did experiment with parachute rescue teams.

In the European Theater, there was very little opportunity for ground rescue. Most flights were over enemy-occupied territory, where a landing meant immediate capture. In the UK area of the European Theatre, the British military was at the time creating its own Royal Air Force Mountain Rescue Service (United Kingdom) which would be based largely on civilian mountain rescue doctrine. The RAFMRS has rescued many American aircrew, or recovered remains, from USAF crashes over its UK territory. Crashes during over-water flights created a great many casualties, the Eighth Air Force initiated a 'sea rescue' group. From its creation in 1943 until the end of the war, the recovery rate of aircrews downed at sea rose from less than five percent to over forty percent.

In the vast reaches of the Pacific Theater, a plane crash meant almost certain death from exposure to the elements. The Army formed several squadrons in theater specifically to aid and rescue downed flyers - both at sea and on islands - with great success."

http://nobadlie.tripod.com/asr.htm

"The history of air rescue began in World War II. Prior to the
advent of large bomber and fighter fleets, little consideration had
been given to the search for and, retrieving of, missing or crashed
airmen. The distressed aviator was searched for in a haphazard
fashion, utilizing the means available with little thought to organized
protection such as mariners then enjoyed. *(l)

    The enemy in Europe could first be reached only by over-water
flight.  The air war in the Pacific presented a similar situation in
exaggerated form. Accelerated training; in the Zone of Interior,
over-water flights by tactical aircraft en route to the theaters of
war, transportation of personnel and supplies by air, antisubmarine
activity, convey defense, and patrol duty were additional factors
creating; a need for a world wide air-sea rescue service. *(2)

    Under the personal guidance of General. H. H. Arnold, a rescue
program was initiated, crews trained, equipment procured, and rescue
squadrons activated."

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by StuB
Are you so sure  tedrbr ?

 

I'm fairly certain that the majority of downed pilots in Europe were picked up by ground forces and ships in the Med and the Channel.  I am also pretty sure that in the Pacific it was primarily submarines on "lifeguard duty", ships, and seaplanes doing the rescuing, although others may have spotted the downed pilot.

I am fairly positive that C-47's did not go flying over enemy territory looking to spot downed fliers, land in an unprepared field, and return the pilot to friendly territory.  And to do this in game to save a couple perk points, when you get a percentage of them for successfully bailing, ditching, or being captured anyways??

So, to be accurate, I suppose we can add light, unarmed recon planes and float planes.   But, how do you plan to avoid the intentional griefs under my point #1?  And do we really want the limited amount or coding and testing time at HTC being put into S&R?

Its just a very marginal piece of added game content.

[StuB]

Your question #1 is quite a stretch.  

You say it would be just "a very marginal piece of added game content" because.....you know for a fact that nobody would wan't to do it?  Because you have experienced another MMOG WW2 flight sim that implemented this with terrible results?

For the rescue aspect, all they would need to do is make it so if a pilot bails in enemy territory, as long as they .ef near a landed rescue a/c they are considered rescued (i.e. not captured).  This would be great for scenarios where each player pilot has limited lives, like Operation Husky, for instance where a capture uses one of your 2 lives.

But it's not just about Search and Rescue.  

How many times have you had GV's coming in towards one of your bases and needed someone to loiter above them to direct in attack a/c?  Most of the a/c currently in AH are too fast or don't give enough visibility.

Also, when your own GV's are trying to shoot at long range they have a harder time judging where their rounds are landing.  Any of the three a/c I've listed below could do a heck of a job directing fire onto them.....and they don't nevcessarily need to be unarmed:  

The Westland Lysander III

General characteristics
Crew: One, pilot
Capacity: 1 passenger (or observer)
Length: 30 ft 6 in (9.29 m)
Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m)
Height: 11 ft 6 in (3.50 m)
Wing area: 260 ft² (24.2 m²)
Empty weight: 4,044 lb (1,834 kg)
Loaded weight: 5,833 lb (2,645 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 6,305 lb (2,866 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Bristol Mercury XX radial engine, 870 hp (649 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed: 212 mph (341 km/h)
Range: 600 miles (966 km)
Service ceiling: 21,500 ft (6,550 m)
Rate of climb: 1,410 ft/min (7.2 m/s)
Wing loading: 22 lb/ft² (109 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.15 hp/lb (250 W/kg)
Armament
Two forward-firing .303 in (7.7-mm) Browning machine guns in wheel fairings
Two .303 Lewis guns for the observer
Four 20 lb (9 kg) bombs under rear fuselage.
Stub wings, if fitted, can carry 500 lb (227 kg) of bombs.


The first Lysanders entered service in June 1938 equipping squadrons for "Army Co-operation" and were initially used for message-dropping and artillery spotting. When war broke out in Europe, the earlier Mk Is had been largely replaced by Mk IIs, the older machines heading for the Middle East. Four regular squadrons equipped with Lysanders accompanied the British Expeditionary Force to France. These were put into action as spotters and light bombers. In spite of occasional victories against German aircraft, they made very easy targets for the Luftwaffe unless escorted by Hurricanes. Almost half the Lysanders operating in and over France were lost and, with the fall of France, the type was quickly withdrawn from its army co-operation role. Back in England some went to work operating air-sea rescue for RAF pilots in the English Channel. Fourteen squadrons and flights were formed for this work during 1940/1941, dropping dinghies to downed pilots.

In August 1941, a new squadron, No. 138 (Special Duties), was formed to undertake missions for the Special Operations Executive to maintain contact with the French Resistance. Among its aircraft were Lysander IIIs, which would fly over and land in France. While general supply drops could be left to the rest of No. 138's aircraft, the Lysander could insert agents on and off the continent, or bring back any downed allied aircrew who had been sheltered by the French. In this role, the Lysander proved to be outstanding, and it continued in this role until the liberation of France in 1944. Flying on moonless nights and without any navigation equipment other than a map and compass, Lysanders would land on short strips of land in country fields, marked out by a couple of torches. In this manner, the pilots of No. 138 and later No. 161 Squadron delivered 101 and recovered 128 agents from Nazi occupied Europe.[2] The Lysanders were painted matt black and flew from secret airfields at Newmarket and Tempsford but used regular RAF stations to fuel up for the actual crossing.

Piper J-3

General characteristics
Crew: one pilot
Capacity: one passenger
Length: 22 ft 5 in (6.83 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft 3 in (10.74 m)
Height: 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m)
Wing area: 178.5 ft² (16.58 m²)
Empty weight: 765 lb (345 kg)
Useful load: 455 lb (205 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 1,220 lb (550 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Continental A-65-8 air-cooled flat four, 65 hp (48 kW) @ 2350 RPM
Performance
Maximum speed: 76 knots (87 mph, 140 km/h)
Cruise speed: 65 knots (75 mph, 121 km/h)
Range: 191 nm (220 mi, 354 km)
Service ceiling: 11,500 ft (3,500 m)
Rate of climb: 450 ft/min (2.3 m/s)
Wing loading: 6.84 lb/ft² (33.4 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 18.75 lb/hp (11.35 kg/kW)

Piper developed a military variant ("All we had to do," Bill Jr. is quoted as saying, "was paint the Cub olive drab to produce a military airplane"), [2] variously designated as the L-4, O-59 and NE-1. The variety of models were collectively nicknamed “Grasshoppers” and were used extensively in World War II for reconnaissance, transporting supplies and medical evacuation.[3] L-4s were also sometimes equipped with lashed-on infantry bazookas for ground attack. Mechanically identical to the J-3, the military versions were equipped with large Plexiglas windows extending over the top of the wing and behind the rear-seat passenger, and the side windows were enlarged. The Grasshopper was so influential to ground battles and the war that the Luftwaffe awarded twice as many "points" towards combat medals for Cub kills as they did for Allied fighter aircraft.[2]

In Europe, the final dogfight of WWII occurred between an L-4 and a German Fi-156 Storch. The pilot and co-pilot of the L-4, Lts. Duane Francis and Bill Martin, opened fire on the Storch with their .45 caliber pistols, forcing the German plane to land. This was also the only known instance of an aircraft being downed by pistol fire during the war

Henschel Hs 126

General characteristics
Crew: Two (pilot and observer/gunner)
Length: 10.9 m (35 ft 7 in)
Wingspan: 14.5 m (47 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.8 m (12 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 31.6 m² (340 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,030 kg (4,480 lb)
Loaded weight: 6,820 lb (3,090 kg)
Powerplant: 1× BMW 132 9-cylinder radial engine, 650 kW (870 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 356 km/h at 3,000 m (221 mph at 9,850 ft)
Combat radius: 998 km (620 mi)
Service ceiling: 8,530 m (28,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 550 m/min (1,800 ft/min)
Wing loading: 97.8 kg/m² (20.1 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.21 kW/kg (0.13 hp/lb)
Armament
1 × forward-firing 7.92 mm MG 17 machine gun
1 × flexible 7.92 mm MG 15 machine gun in the observer/gunner
Up to 50 kg (110 lb) of bombs

The Henschel Hs 126 was a Luftwaffe (air force) aircraft of World War II. Produced in two models (A and B). Although primarily a reconnaissance aircraft, it could carry up to 50 kg of bombs and was equipped with two 7.92 mm machine guns, a forward firing MG 17 and a flexible MG 15 in the observer/gunner position. Late in the war, it was used in glider tug and night ground attack roles.

Originally posted by tedrbr

".... I suppose we can add light, unarmed recon planes and float planes.   But, how do you plan to avoid the intentional griefs under my point #1?  And do we really want the limited amount or coding and testing time at HTC being put into S&R?

Its just a very marginal piece of added game content. [/B]

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by StuB
But it's not just about Search and Rescue.  

How many times have you had GV's coming in towards one of your bases and needed someone to loiter above them to direct in attack a/c?  Most of the a/c currently in AH are too fast or don't give enough visibility.

Also, when your own GV's are trying to shoot at long range they have a harder time judging where their rounds are landing.  Any of the three a/c I've listed below could do a heck of a job directing fire onto them.....and they don't nevcessarily need to be unarmed:  

You don't need to add spotter aircraft to the game to accomplish these non-S&R missions.  There are planes in the game that can do these kinds of jobs, you just don't see it being done all that often by the players.  Adding more mission specific airplanes will not get the players to start doing those kinds of specific mission.

You want a slow spotter aircraft to help direct attack planes and ground forces to enemy GV's, or help them in ranging on an enemy?   I suggest the Stuka, Val, Kate, A-20, Boston, SBD-5, TBM-3 and IL-2.  Make use of that external view for visibility.  Turn your tracers on before flight.  Take rockets if available to mark targets.  I've done it many times, especially on maps that featured a lot of GV action (outside of the TT arrangement).
You don't really need a slow bomber or attack plane either, I've made use of Ki-61's, Yaks, and Ki-84's in spotter role before.  A P-40B, Hurri Mk1, Spit-I, or A6M2 will work well in lieu of a Piper if you prefer.


So, we are back to it being just about Search and Rescue again.

[Spikes]

Originally posted by SShot
As we all,.....most..... know, after you bail out and hit the ground, there isnt much else to do but "end sorite". I was thinking you could *caughs* barrow an enemy's jeep and rtb, or maybe someone in a C-47 could land in a clearing and pick you up? I'm just spitballing, so any other ideas are welcome. Or if this is completely stupid, ingore it, but i mean, dosent hurt to ask, does it?


SShot

The Search function is your friend you know.

[StuB]

Perhaps players haven't been performing target spotting because there aren't any good a/c to do it in?

Most of the a/c you mention do indeed fly slow, but they don't turn well enough to stay right over a target.

I have done FAC duty whenever it was necessary.....back in AW as well as in AH.  It's always been a problem to stay above and keep a constant eye on the target because there have never been any a/c that were slow and manouverable enough to do it.

It's not something you want....fine.  But there really wouldn't be any REAL problem if AH had them, now would there? (that was rhetorical, of course YOU personally have a problem with it    )

Now were back at having it be about both SAR/FAC again.

Originally posted by tedrbr
You don't need to add spotter aircraft to the game to accomplish these non-S&R missions.  There are planes in the game that can do these kinds of jobs, you just don't see it being done all that often by the players.  Adding more mission specific airplanes will not get the players to start doing those kinds of specific mission.

You want a slow spotter aircraft to help direct attack planes and ground forces to enemy GV's, or help them in ranging on an enemy?   I suggest the Stuka, Val, Kate, A-20, Boston, SBD-5, TBM-3 and IL-2.  Make use of that external view for visibility.  Turn your tracers on before flight.  Take rockets if available to mark targets.  I've done it many times, especially on maps that featured a lot of GV action (outside of the TT arrangement).
You don't really need a slow bomber or attack plane either, I've made use of Ki-61's, Yaks, and Ki-84's in spotter role before.  A P-40B, Hurri Mk1, Spit-I, or A6M2 will work well in lieu of a Piper if you prefer.


So, we are back to it being just about Search and Rescue again.

[tedrbr]

You find yourself going THAT slow over a enemy GV attack,.... say, from the Bish,.... led by LTARs,.... with an Ostie or two amongst them..... you are not going to be FAC for very long in this game.

[Martyn]

For the simplest rescue scenario, all we'd need is the ability of an empty jeep (driven by a colleague) to pick up a downed pilot, return him to base/spawn point and the pilot to then obtain his perks as if he'd landed OK.

Giving the PT boat and/or any airplanes the ability to rescue would be nice but these might not come until later.

[StuB]

I agree, it wouldn't be easy against Ostie's or even M-16's.

The SAR/FAC a/c would be slower but they would also be much more manuverable.  They would have to stay down on the deck and hide in the trees.

Originally posted by tedrbr
You find yourself going THAT slow over a enemy GV attack,.... say, from the Bish,.... led by LTARs,.... with an Ostie or two amongst them..... you are not going to be FAC for very long in this game.