Author Topic: Bf 109 Vs. P-38  (Read 3350 times)

Offline EsX_Raptor

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Re: Re: Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2007, 08:07:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
man have you been thinking wrong here.
38 is a mean ride.
But an easy target :t

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
...and Ki84s share that...
Ki84s are very easy.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 08:39:06 PM by EsX_Raptor »

Offline Emu

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2007, 08:10:10 PM »
The 38 is definitely not a piece of cake for a 109 when flown by a good stick.  Typically, yes, I agree.... the 38 is nothing to be afraid of.  But then get someone real good with it, like Murdr, Akak, Lazer, Pawz, IceBirdV... and if you make one mistake, you will end up in the tower quicker than you think, no matter what 109 you are in.  I do have to admit, however, that if you start the fight in an advantageous position, its hard for a 38 to shake you off a 109.  

Finally, as far as how to shake off a 38 that is already on your six, and is flown by a good stick... yeah, good luck.  Its only a matter of time before we meet in the tower.

Emu

Offline Kweassa

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2007, 10:29:20 PM »
Every 109 except the K-4, turns better than every P-38 except the G. The equalizer working in favor of the P-38, however, is that the inherent stability of that plane allows it to pull very tight angles in the shortest possible execution time, whereas a 109 requires to be 'nursed' into maneuvering into very tight angles. An adept pilot can shorten the required time to do so, but in many cases that still isn't enough to really match the P-38 during maneuvering.

 Another problem is that the inherent stability of that torqueless freak, allows it to pull its nose up at even extremely low speeds. This becomes a problem when you're fighting in the vertical.

 Against most enemies a 109 pilot can feel more or less confident about the moment when he's gained the final edge he needs for getting the critical upperhand after the merge. Draw the fight into the vertical against a - let's say - P-47 or a P-51, and after a few minutes your superior acceleration and climb puts the enemy under you at 600~800 yards. They'd love to take a pot-shot at you, except they can't pull their noses up to fire at you. Then you reverse over the top, and blast away.
 
 Now, against a P-38, this rarely works. You know you've gained the upperhand in the E fight - except, despite extreme low speeds and disadvantaged E state, the P-38 will rear its head up like a snake, and take a shot at you, and good pilots do connect that 600yard shot. (That's when things start going really pissy, and you feel that urge to rant about AH and its damned long-range gunnery.. but that is another story..)

 ...

 
 Ultimately, for the average 109 pilot of AH, the best method is to stick to the classic 109 'hunting' tactics:


- The practical hunting tactics for the average 109 pilot who can't do that 'vet' stuff -

(1). Approach with some amount of E advantage in the first place. Don't kid yourself that you can squeeze yourself into an E advantaged position during the fight itself - it doesn't happen. You may be able to do that against Spitfires or P-51s or N1K2s, but it doesn't work against La-7s(outaccelerated) or P-38s(torqueless freaks).

(2). Getting a P-38 coming down on you, is definately a no-no. When a P-38 comes down and lands behind you at 800yards, don't ever expect to you can actually outmaneuver him or something. Centerline 50cal+20mm armament isn't something you'd like to take chances against. If the P-38 is indeed such a superior plane as some claim, then there's no shame in just buggering out of the fight and seeking help from your friends - especially if a good pilot is inside that freak. Maybe after a while he'll PM you about how weak you are, or how you aren't going to learn anything, and blah blah blah blah blah with the vet-trash lingo, but hey, you aren't obliged to become cannon fodder for free. In most cases those vet-guys just hate coming down low into the fray, and they'll give up the chase farely soon.

(3). In other words, don't ever meet a P-38 that is higher than you alone. Do what the P-38 guys themselves do - just go away when there's a higher bogey that may force you down low into the hellpot of a furball. Just move away, come back later with more alt. The chances are, when that happens the other guy will just back away too. Happens all the time. Remember again, that you aren't obliged to do anything - especially charge into a fight you know you are disadvantaged in the first place.

(4). If you do have a good amount of E advantage, hunt and corner the P-38 to the best of your knowledge. The 109 is at its best somewhere between that lazy, half-witted Bore-n-zooming and the brainless, point-and-click turning fest of a fight.

(5) The P-38 is great in verticals, but that doesn't mean it can just shake away a disadvantage in E. Approach and dive attack, but mind your pull-out flightpath. Don't ever do that BnZ thingy where you take a dive at him and then bugger away out of his icon range - if you wanted to do that you should have upped a P-51 or a 190D.

(6) Take a poke at him, make him turn, loop, or do whatever he thinks he can do, and then, while he is recovering from the maneuver, take another poke so he is forced to maneuver prematurely before recovering much of his E. To do this, you have to constantly stay inside at least 2.0k distance. If the distance is further than 2.0, the P-38 has enough time to recover most of his E. This actually needs some experience, since if you don't do this right, that "2.0k" can quickly turn into "400" with him behind you.

(7) If you pushed him down towards the deck, then you've half succeeded. Tighten your grip a bit more and keep conscious of the moment when you'll commit. Remember - once committed, there's no turning back, and one of you is going to get shot down. Usually, even if at deck, the first few moments the P-38 still has enough E to pull some wild reversals and loops on you. Corner him a bit more, so he starts to show signs of really straining at low speeds to do that loopy stuff he does. When you see that happen, that's the time for you to commit. Dump all the extra E that makes you prone to overshoots, land behind him and start matching his turns for the kill.

(8) Or a popular alternative, is to approach slightly higher with really really high speed, and then go all vertical on him. Many P-38 pilots have that charactersitic overconfidence in verticals - and if they see a 109 trying a merge, and then go vertical, their first instinct is to follow it. It's like running around a dog - when a dog sees you run, he's gonna chase you. However, the dog does the same thing even if you're driving a car - despite the fact that dogs cannot catch cars. So, act as if you're wanting a merge. When the two planes brush by, go into an immelmann, and the P-38 will follow you. This is why you need so much more speed than normal circumstances - his instinct is going to make him try and follow any immelmann he sees. And when he does, you've got the rope-a-dope on him. At best, you're gonna shoot him down. At worst, you've got him stalling under you and you're on the offense.


 Stick to the above tips, and most P-38s won't bother you... If some of the better pilots are involved, then you shouldn't be flying around those guys in the first place. They have this nasty attitude of a drunken father who beats his child with belt buckles for "education". Remember - if you want to learn anything, learn by winning, not by losing.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 10:31:53 PM by Kweassa »

Offline DEMONSLAYER

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2007, 11:02:14 PM »
hmm lets see here. i fly a 109 and when a p38 gets on my 6 since the 109 is WAY better at the scissors i simply just scissor him till he gets close then a lag roll them. this move take a long asssss time to learn but is awesome when you learn it.



the P38 is heavy and as a slow roll rate scissors are the way to go.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Re: Re: Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2007, 11:55:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EsX_Raptor
Ki84s are very easy.


Just like the average P38 pilot, the average Ki84 pilot sucks and doesn't know how to fly the plane he's in. However, they both have a lot more potential than most of the planeset. When it comes to a furball, IF they have a good pilot in them they'll outfly and kill anything else they encounter.

Offline Kweassa

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2007, 02:58:25 AM »
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When it comes to a furball, IF they have a good pilot in them they'll outfly and kill anything else they encounter.


 Then how'd you explain every P-38 staying 5k above a furball, instead of actually being inside one? :D

Offline Krusty

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2007, 07:08:36 AM »
The word "IF".

storch

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2007, 07:11:33 AM »
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik.  the rest of those guys are akakospherers.

Offline frosty

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2007, 02:46:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik.  the rest of those guys are akakospherers.


Some try that, but the 38 is pretty horrible as an alt-monkey option.  Once it breaks into the 400s in a dive (which takes all of no time at all) it becomes practically auger-matic, and it takes some skill just to hold its speed down.   It's just wasted airspace (and wasted time getting up there) above a certain point.  I also find it pretty crummy in high altitude engagements (including buff killing), but it might just be me.

At the same time, getting into a sustained turn fight in a furball is a real bad idea as well in the 38, among other reasons due to the fact that it's a bogey magnet and its profile when banking presents a huge target.  Best to keep it vertical.  To hell with the merry-go-rounders. :rolleyes:

Offline Guppy35

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2007, 03:20:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik.  the rest of those guys are akakospherers.


LOL. Well I know a bunch of good 38 sticks who prefer to mix it up in the weeds.  I wouldn't claim to be one of them, but you can sure find me turn fighting on the deck in my 38G.

To categorize all the 38 players as alt monkeys is a bit off the mark I'd say.

We had 20 of em up last night and our starting alt was 10K.  If that makes us alt monkeys, the definition has changed as we spent most of the night down low turning.

As for AKAK, I've seen him fighting down low many a time.  If he's flying solo and uses alt, I can't say I blame him, anymore then I would blame a 109 driver for doing the same thing.

And Storch, I don't ever recall being above you in a fight :)
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Offline Guppy35

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2007, 03:21:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Then how'd you explain every P-38 staying 5k above a furball, instead of actually being inside one? :D


That is a blatant untruth Kweasssa.

Anyone whose ever seen my 38G, would say it's down on the deck, probably smoking, but turning inside the furball.  it's the only place that's fun for me :)
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Offline Eagler

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2007, 03:34:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the only good P38 player I have ever run across is pellik.  the rest of those guys are akakospherers.


it doesn't take a pellik to kill you in a 38 now does it :)
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Offline DarkglamJG52

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2007, 04:08:16 PM »
Dalgurak you have PM.

storch

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2007, 04:50:08 PM »
but it does take more than an eagler :D,  some days

Offline Ack-Ack

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Bf 109 Vs. P-38
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2007, 07:51:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35


As for AKAK, I've seen him fighting down low many a time.  If he's flying solo and uses alt, I can't say I blame him, anymore then I would blame a 109 driver for doing the same thing.

And Storch, I don't ever recall being above you in a fight :)


Storchita is just bitter because no matter what she tries against me, I always end up on her six and shoot her down.  Regardless if we're on the deck or co-alt, the result is always the same "You shot Storchita down" and then come the typical channel 200 or PM whines from her about how I used some trickery or such nonsense.  *shrug*

If you notice, she'll say the same about anyone else that is better than she is at this game.


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