Author Topic: Check out the debris from this HO shot  (Read 2377 times)

Offline truck5co

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Check out the debris from this HO shot
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2007, 12:24:39 PM »
The same guys who whine about ho'ing are the probably the same guys who run home to land their 4 kills just when the goon is gonna drop troops only to let the goon and its troops get killed. Cant have it both ways. Personally I dont believe in Marquis of Queensbury (?) rules in a gunfight, whether its planes, 9mm's at 10 ft, real life or a game. The planes , weapons and ords for the most part are modelled realistically in order to make the game like real life, so why cant we use a real life tactics? Major Dick Bong speciallized in the HO with his 38, just dont see why it cant be used here. I once had a rook cry his eyes out when I ho'd him. I was upping out of a hangar at a base about to be overrun and he's lining up for an easy vulch, I managed to get just enough nose up atitude to put a burst in him b4 he fired. He lit 200 up with sobs. Vulch OK but not a HO? IMHO its all fair in love and war.
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Offline DoLbY

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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2007, 12:52:59 PM »
I admit, I'll HO someone now and then but I try to avoid doing it unless its a angled HO (that sound dirty), but anyway, as for the video. I must have missed that espiode but sure i'll catch it again on re-run.

That would be pretty neat if the engine came off like that in the game!:aok

Offline whiteman

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« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2007, 01:11:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by truck5co
The same guys who whine about ho'ing are the probably the same guys who run home to land their 4 kills just when the goon is gonna drop troops only to let the goon and its troops get killed. Cant have it both ways. Personally I dont believe in Marquis of Queensbury (?) rules in a gunfight, whether its planes, 9mm's at 10 ft, real life or a game. The planes , weapons and ords for the most part are modelled realistically in order to make the game like real life, so why cant we use a real life tactics? Major Dick Bong speciallized in the HO with his 38, just dont see why it cant be used here. I once had a rook cry his eyes out when I ho'd him. I was upping out of a hangar at a base about to be overrun and he's lining up for an easy vulch, I managed to get just enough nose up atitude to put a burst in him b4 he fired. He lit 200 up with sobs. Vulch OK but not a HO? IMHO its all fair in love and war.
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agree

Offline pluck

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« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2007, 02:05:21 PM »
generally speaking, in this game, if you want to survive, why would you HO?  I'd rather take the time someone is spending trying to HO me, avoiding the chance of dying, losing valuable parts, and move into a better firing position, one that doesn't have his guns trained on me.  The only time I HO is if i'm out of options.  of course, i don't understand how this game relates to real life, and i surely don't understand how taking a perfectly good airplane, and lining it up nose to nose with another airplane is considered low risk with high chance of surviving.....didn't turn out to good for the oscar.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 02:14:30 PM by pluck »
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Offline A8Hunter

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« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2007, 02:31:40 PM »
Generally a HO in this game is the result of two pilots, both arriving at a point in the sky and both realize that to turn gives the other a distinct advantage. The experience level in this game is seriously less than that of fighter pilots who have been trained well by some of the best. As a result, we find ourselves in situations that the head-on merge is our best option. We would all love a 180 degree deflection shot but in our attempts to gain advantage on the other guy and fill our sights with bogey we tend to neglect closure rate, AOA, AOD, and all other important stuff needed to survive the 1st pass if we don't kill the guy.
  In a sense, it is correct to say that not dying for real motivates us to take risks our true heroe's would not have attempted; Maybe.......
  But, an inevitable consequence of any digital world is we lack a certain depth perception on a 2d screen, we lack experience of real flight, real training, and real life. Even the best of the best will HO in real life, and in this game as is evidence in the film, and other notorious outakes.
  For some, dying is miserable and the .200 lash out is a way of dealing with it. Me, I just let it scroll on by....:),

Not the worst of the worst,,,,but trying
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Offline VERTEX

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« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2007, 05:59:05 PM »
In the beginning, all you want is to get a kill, any kill. My first kill was la7 vs la7 HO shot and I won. I was very excited. Then all you want is two kills so you can see your name in lights. Then you want 5 then 10. Then you want to land kills all the time, every sortie if possible. Vulching exites you. Then when that becomes boring you become a cherry picker. Eventually that becomes tiring and you start flying more difficult planes. Now you live for the fight, and love it no matter what the outcome as long as it was a good one.

My point?

If you are still defending the HO you simply have not evolved to the next level of play. But eventually you will because the HO will simply get boring. Like crockett said, its not dweebish because it wasnt done in real life, its dweebish because its simple, and anyone can do it.

Offline truck5co

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« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2007, 08:41:02 PM »
You dont wanna get ho'd, dont come at me head on, simple as that.
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Offline DoLbY

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« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2007, 09:12:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
In the beginning, all you want is to get a kill, any kill. My first kill was la7 vs la7 HO shot and I won. I was very excited. Then all you want is two kills so you can see your name in lights. Then you want 5 then 10. Then you want to land kills all the time, every sortie if possible. Vulching exites you. Then when that becomes boring you become a cherry picker. Eventually that becomes tiring and you start flying more difficult planes. Now you live for the fight, and love it no matter what the outcome as long as it was a good one.

My point?

If you are still defending the HO you simply have not evolved to the next level of play. But eventually you will because the HO will simply get boring. Like crockett said, its not dweebish because it wasnt done in real life, its dweebish because its simple, and anyone can do it.



Some good points there. I admit as well, I do have a habit of cherry picking and vulching. But once I get back into the game and back into an rythm, I want to try to get into 1vs1s or at least doing something other then what I have previously (such as BnZ)

Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2007, 04:56:40 AM »
I can't understand why people keep resurrecting dead threads.... necrophilia? :noid

That said, I wanted to avoid another lengthy post, but I can't. I don't agree with a single word of the following....

Quote
Originally posted by A8Hunter
Generally a HO in this game is the result of two pilots, both arriving at a point in the sky and both realize that to turn gives the other a distinct advantage.


That's absolutely not true! You arrive at that point only if you want to! Let's clear what I mean: I can think of 3 possible HOs... the one that occurs in the middle of a big furball, with lots of planes, the one that occurs in an already begun 1 vs 1 fight and, finally, the one that occurs at the first merge, usually with planes running straight on at one another with guns blazing.
Of all these 3, only the first one could fit your statement and it's the only kind of HO I can accept. When you are in the middle of a furious furball, you have to take any shot you can, especially if you're alone or outnumbered. But in the other 2 situation, a HO gives NO real advantage of any type. It's just the most easy, skill-less shot you can take.
And more than that, in the third situation I outlined, it's only detrimental, for, if your opponent don't go for it but try to get angles on you, he will eventually win the fight. In fact, I can't really figure out a situation in which a HO can occur where turning will give your opponent a distinct advantage... it is the exact contrary!


Quote
The experience level in this game is seriously less than that of fighter pilots who have been trained well by some of the best.


There are threads in this BBS where this matter has been discussed... they surely had a deeper knowledge of flying and fighting from a theoretical POV, but we have a lot more of hours of both, and, most of all... we don't die, so we can try whatever we want and that gives us more "experience" than they had.

Quote
As a result, we find ourselves in situations that the head-on merge is our best option. We would all love a 180 degree deflection shot but in our attempts to gain advantage on the other guy and fill our sights with bogey we tend to neglect closure rate, AOA, AOD, and all other important stuff needed to survive the 1st pass if we don't kill the guy.


Again, as I said above, you find yourself in a HO situation only if you want to. Or if you don't know what you're doing or what to do. In fact, talking about neglecting the basics of A2A combat, you talk about yourself, I think... there are a LOT of good pilots in this game and on the BBS those subjects have been discussed lots of times... we do pay attention at them when we fight. Maybe that's because we don't HO and we kill our prey mostly from the rear sector.

Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
In the beginning, all you want is to get a kill, any kill. My first kill was la7 vs la7 HO shot and I won. I was very excited. Then all you want is two kills so you can see your name in lights. Then you want 5 then 10. Then you want to land kills all the time, every sortie if possible. Vulching exites you. Then when that becomes boring you become a cherry picker. Eventually that becomes tiring and you start flying more difficult planes. Now you live for the fight, and love it no matter what the outcome as long as it was a good one.


Yeah, that should be the path... alas, not everyone agree with that or have the b..ls to quit HOing and vulching to go on and become a better pilot.
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Offline morfiend

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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2007, 06:27:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
And if that's your choice in how you play it, then go for it.

Just don't try and connect real combat and real risk with anything we do in here, cause there is no risk and this most definately isn't real:)


 Oh Guppy,there are many risks,could spill your beer on keyboard,laughing at CH200 banter.Repetive strain injury to hand and wrist,from all the stick stirring:rofl  the list goes on and on.
  Sry I just couldn't resist.....:aok

Offline A8Hunter

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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2007, 10:18:02 AM »
Well I couldn't agree with you more Gianlupo except my post wasn't about HOW you wind up with a HO, or that a HO has an advantage, or disadvantage, none of that I discussed. My point was after the decisions had been made, after BOTH pilots wound up in the Same area of sky, Both pointed at each other. A HO is simply two AC at the same point, in opposite directions. Maybe it would have helped if I had explained that more. I did not, defend, offend, make allude to, or anything else about how they got into that position so your comments although correct, do not reflect on what I wrote.

Theorotical or not, there is absolutely no proof that a digital gamer has any experience level comparable to that of yesterdays or todays fighter pilot. If there were ANY proof in that pudding flight certificates would be handed out after a check ride in Microsoft Flight Simulator. That does not mean that a fighter pilot will step into the digital world and remain undefeated by a digital gamer but it does mean our experience is NOT that of a trained US fighter jock and never will be...period. Ask any number of the actual fighter jocks playing this game, such as MACE.

I appreciate your post but you misread what I stated....a HO is a head on...right/wrong/indefferent.
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Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2007, 12:13:09 PM »
As usual, I wrote too much, and that is detrimental to my own reasoning... anyway, even if your post wasn't about how an HO occur (and, yes, it needed to be explained better), you wrote:

Quote
Generally a HO in this game is the result of two pilots, both arriving at a point in the sky and both realize that to turn gives the other a distinct advantage.  


and I replied to this point, with which I still don't agree:

Quote
In fact, I can't really figure out a situation in which a HO can occur where turning will give your opponent a distinct advantage... it is the exact contrary!


in a HO situation, turning will only be a benefit, because it will put you out of the line of fire of your opponent, it'll give him a much worse target and it'll allow you to take the initiative. The only time in which this can't happen is when the 2 planes are really close and already hitting each other.

As for the experience, of course no proof can be given. What I wanted to say, and many others had already said, it's that, in comparison to a WWII pilot, we have more hours of combat logged and we found ourselves involved in combat situations much more than the average WWII fighter pilot. This means only that we are much used to react in the right way in those situations, because we experienced them and died in them a lot of times, a luxury that a real pilot couldn't afford. In this sense, we are more "experienced".
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Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2007, 12:21:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The experience level in this game is seriously less than that of fighter pilots who have been trained well by some of the best.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are threads in this BBS where this matter has been discussed... they surely had a deeper knowledge of flying and fighting from a theoretical POV, but we have a lot more of hours of both, and, most of all... we don't die, so we can try whatever we want and that gives us more "experience" than they had.


Puhleese!  Get serious.  No offense but do you actually believe this?

There is almost no cross-over between what we do and what a real fighter pilot does.  We don't actually pull 7-8 G's sitting in our comfy chairs.  We don't actually roll inverted.  We don't have to actually fight our sticks beyond a little spring tension.  We don't have to deal with engine management.  We don't have to deal with trim unless we want to.  Did you actually have to turn your head to look behind you last flight?  Do you think a real pilot strapped in saves his views in snap mode?  We don't actually face real death.

Because you get to "try whatever you want" makes you more experienced?  There are only a finite number of recognized combat manouvers.  Do you think they don't train fighter pilots in these?  Do you think actual fighter pilots ride the tunnel or the stall buzzer like we do?

"Well I've done hundreds more high yo-yo's than a real pilot"... Woohoo... YOU DA MAN!

My guess is whomever moves to the others environment is going to lose.  Put a real pilot in here and he will lose until he gets used to the ridiculous extremes we can push and the ridiculously perilous positions we can put ourselves in.  Put you in a real fighter and... well, I wouldn't give you much of a chance.  I do however, believe that a real pilot would adapt to our environment faster than you (we) would adapt to his, and that would be the true test of who's more experienced.
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Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2007, 12:42:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
....
My guess is whomever moves to the others environment is going to lose.  Put a real pilot in here and he will lose until he gets used to the ridiculous extremes we can push and the ridiculously perilous positions we can put ourselves in.  ......


I think this is what he meant in his post, in here we have much more knowledge and experiance and would crush a real pilot, because we can push the envolope much more.

To me a HO is those who fire at head to head merges, too many fights end before they begin due to those pulling their trigger in stead of the joystick.

Just for giggles, I'd love to see the stats of kills and deaths for a tour where all shots with less than 5 degres off the the nose in H2H situations were null and void. Can you imagine the crying ???  LOL!!   :t

Offline P47Gra

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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2007, 03:54:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by halcyon
Uh oh....he ho'd someone.

In real combat.

Prepare for the whiners.


Ohhh my god a HOer.  He should be brought up on charges of being dishonerable in a fight.  The Army Air Corps should have taken the kill away and then they should have made him a cook.  

Ut ohhh I hear some Bish whinning starting up....Ohhh that was my wife..oops

Jugman