Author Topic: Tax Evaders Challenge Feds  (Read 2191 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2007, 01:21:46 AM »
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's never necessary to steal a man's money by force.


You can steal it by guile or stealth...
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2007, 06:56:02 AM »
Weaver was acquitted because the jury decided he'd suffered enough because his wife had been killed. Evidence didn't have anything to do with it. The assumption that a jury followed the law is without merit.

The Waco raid was botched by the ATF (I do not like the ATF either) as Koresh could have, and should have, been taken out in the open. But that makes the Davidians no less guilty than Weaver. They still opened fire on uniformed agents. With military weapons. From an armed compound.

And what Weaver and Koresh did only serves to make it twice as hard on the law abiding people who must deal with the government. They didn't help a damned thing. It only served to further solidify the general public's opion that peole who own "riot guns", AR-15's, Barrett light 50's, and high capacity hand guns are all out to kill people and especially law enforcement officers. Just great for the cause of the law abiding gun owners. Brilliant tactics and strategy. Now, when the BATFE raids a law abiding gun owner, dealer, or manufacturer, and the law abiding citizen IS actually abused illegally and railroaded, no one says a damned thing, and the media never mentions it. The media has no reason to cover it, because the victim isn't a nut job and didn't kill a federal agent, and the general public, without any real news the media could have provided, merely assumes it was a raid executed against a nut job that went well.

The same thing is true of the anti tax people. The law is there, they ignore it, they flaunt it, they brag about it, then they kill someone and get killed themselves in the process. Which immediately makes the rest of the people protesting against taxes look like nut jobs. They also make law abiding gun owners look like nut jobs, as an added bonus.

The only attention they draw to their causes is the attention no one wants. The media only serves to make it worse.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2007, 08:53:28 AM »
virgil... while I agree that no man represents me or my situation.. koresh does not represent my social or religious views nor does Weaver but.

The way the government handled those situations is far worse.. It does not represent the way I feel at all... It represents the opposite of the way I feel.  I would have left those people alone or had a local sheriff handle it.   The government was criminal...

I do not want to say that I was a part of that government.  It did not represent me.  I would have defended Koresh and Weaver against it if I had been given the chance and/or choice.

lazs

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2007, 09:36:56 AM »
I do not dispute that the government was wrong in the way they handled the situations. I agree, in both cases the government did a poor job. However, I also take into account the fact that in both cases the confrontation was forced, and both sides equally guilty.

At this point and time there is little, if anything, to be gained by forcing an armed confrontation with the government, or proposing a violent armed revolt. And MUCH to be LOST.

Intentionally breaking the law and forcing a violent armed confrontation is not going to gain anything. The only public awareness that will be gained will be when the media shows the result, and the general public sees it and decides that a bunch of nut jobs decided they were above the law and ended up getting people killed.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2007, 10:58:42 AM »
so if you sit on your property and tell the govt to go away and leave you alone you are forcing the armed confrontation?  In weaver and waco it was the govt the fired first.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2007, 11:08:47 AM »
To say that the people in some of these instances have been portrayed  as nutjobs is correct. Sad, but true.
To say that they have been accepted  by the general public as such is a stretch.
I think that time has passed. Much to the dislike of the boys in black. Be it Tax ninjas, gun ninjas..or whatever banner they wish to be under at any particualr time. It`s all the same anyway.
More and more people are beginning to see through the smoke screen that worked so well for them through the past years. More and more are raising their voices about it.
Damage control is pretty well history for outrageous acts against the general population.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2007, 11:37:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
so if you sit on your property and tell the govt to go away and leave you alone you are forcing the armed confrontation?  In weaver and waco it was the govt the fired first.


If the government has a warrant for your arrest you cannot simply tell them to go away and leave you alone. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way. Otherwise anyone can commit any criminal act, go home and tell the government to go away and leave you alone. The idea is absurd.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2007, 12:46:20 PM »
i guess you have never heard of negotiations.

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2007, 01:16:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
The way I understand it, the forefathers set it up so that we the people will not be double, triple taxed (based on what England was doing to the colonists at the time) however we are constantly double, tripled, quadruple taxed all the time. Can anyone verify the first sentence?


A good friend of mine was left a little over $150K after his father died, the .gov came a knock'n demanding near 33% as a "gift tax". A family friend was left $15 million, the .gov took $7M off the top.. same BS, "gift tax".

Taxing money that's already been taxed seems just wrong, the threats made by the .gov if you don't pay are draconian at best.. they promise to audit, investigate, leaving one penniless, homeless and freedom-less... so just pay up.. dont be'a mess'n wit da .gov mafia, capishe?

Rather than the "Red Coats" throwing citizens in Debtors' prison for owing the crown, it's the Feds doing it for owing the clowns.

I applaud this guy, if I wasn't so lazy I'd go to where he is a open a lemonade stand to raise $$ to buy him more guns / ammo.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2007, 01:41:22 PM »
Quote
Weaver was acquitted because the jury decided he'd suffered enough because his wife had been killed. Evidence didn't have anything to do with it. The assumption that a jury followed the law is without merit.


That would be incorrect.

Quote
At his trial in 1993, which occurred during the federal siege of the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, Weaver faced an array of charges, including the original weapons violations as well as murder. He was represented by noted trial lawyer Gerry Spence. Spence successfully argued that Weaver acted in self-defense during the raid and was the victim of entrapment with respect to the weapons charge, winning Weaver's acquittal on all charges except missing his original court date and violation of his bail conditions, for which he was sentenced to 18 months and fined $10,000. He was credited with time served and spent an additional 4 months in prison. Harris was acquitted of all charges. The presiding judge severely criticized the prosecution for its late disclosure of evidence; specifically evidence that related to Horiuchi.


While jury members may have made comments after the trial about Randy Weaver having already suffered enough. Fact is, his attorney argued his case well enough to get him aquitted.

Do we not have the right to self defense even from the .gov? At Ruby Ridge federal agents had the shoot to kill order before they ever showed up on Randy Weaver's property.
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Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2007, 01:49:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If the government has a warrant for your arrest you cannot simply tell them to go away and leave you alone. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way. Otherwise anyone can commit any criminal act, go home and tell the government to go away and leave you alone. The idea is absurd.


Actually, you can in some instances. Arrest warrants, different than search warrants, must be endorsed; some are only good during daytime hours, other can be "served" at night, all can be served in public places anytime.

If a cop with a generic (daytime) warrant comes to your door at 9pm and 'asks' you to step outside.. you can tell him / her to have sex with themselves. Even during the day you have zero obligation to voluntarily step outside, and the police cant force entry based on an arrest warrant alone unless authorized.

Arrest warrants are a dime a dozen, every knucklehead who skips a court date gets one, and few agencies have the time / desire for warrant details because its a PITA... except the Feds.

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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2007, 02:20:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If the government has a warrant for your arrest you cannot simply tell them to go away and leave you alone. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way. Otherwise anyone can commit any criminal act, go home and tell the government to go away and leave you alone. The idea is absurd.
the state has the obligation to enforce the laws of the society it serves.  if a member of the society refuses to conform to laws of that society he must pay the consequence of his non conformity.  I pay my taxes, my full taxes.  I do not fudge the numbers in any way, not because I fear enforcement but because it is my duty as a beneficiary of this great society to carry my share of the load.  in the example of people like the brown family we have a couple who owe the society over one million dollars.  that means that the rest of us have had to take up the slack for them, I don't agree with this mentality and the government damned well better enforce the law and do so with extreme prejudice.  time is life.  if time is also money then they owe us either the money or their lives.  shoot the bastards, shoot them twice.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2007, 05:43:58 PM »
They don't owe anything to anybody.  The government's just pissed that they didn't bend over and take the bellybutton raping like everyone else.


You still haven't replied about the farmer's revolts in our republic's early history.  Or did the notion of them not being freeloaders ruin your socialistic ideals?


Quote
Regardless of your opinion of the laws, this is still a nation based on the rule of law. You don't get to decide you "don't like a law" or decide a "law doesn't exist", and just ignore it. Things don't work that way. If it did, what we'd have is anarchy.


Legality and Morality hardly ever coincide.  With the federal government downright refusing to enforce some laws, why is it so important for us to obey them all?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:46:18 PM by lasersailor184 »
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Offline Sundowner

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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2007, 08:50:12 PM »
Here's the latest from CNN.
I think they got a winner on this article. These 2 people are now officially loony-tunes.

CNN's tone and demeanor seem slanted toward the "smear 'em" side of journalism. (duh)

Regards,
Sun



Tax dodgers taunt police from hilltop compound
POSTED: 1:52 p.m. EDT, June 21, 2007

PLAINFIELD, New Hampshire (AP) -- To avoid serving prison sentences for tax evasion, Ed Brown and his wife, Elaine, have locked themselves off from the world on their own terms.

From behind the 8-inch concrete walls of their 110-acre hilltop compound, the couple taunt police and SWAT teams and play to reporters and government-haters with references to past standoffs that turned deadly.

Residents want the Browns' circus to end before their small town along the Connecticut River becomes the next Ruby Ridge or Waco.

The Browns raised the specter of the first case, the 1992 shootout at an Idaho property called Ruby Ridge, by holding a news conference Monday with Randy Weaver, whose wife and child were killed there along with a deputy U.S. marshal.

Ed Brown warned authorities they wouldn't take him alive: "We either walk out of here free or we die." (Watch the SWAT team move in Video)

The Browns were sentenced in absentia to 63-month prison sentences in April, after being convicted of conspiring to evade taxes on nearly $1.9 million in Elaine Brown's income and of plotting to disguise large financial transactions.

Though they have refused to leave the compound, U.S. Marshal Stephen Monier insists he has no plans to raid it to make them serve their time and will instead seek a peaceful surrender.

Expert observers praise the authorities' hands-off approach, but patience is wearing thin for Plainfield's 2,400 residents. Town selectmen recently asked Monier to stop the influx of militiamen and other anti-government groups to the Browns' home and to bring the couple to justice.

"While we understand and support efforts to achieve a quiet resolution to this matter, the longer the Browns remain at large the better the chance, in our view, that our local police force will be involved in an incident with them or their group of supporters," the letter reads. "In short, we believe that it is time that definitive action be taken."

It's a sentiment echoed throughout the town.

"The people of Plainfield feel the whole thing has been mismanaged from the get-go," says Stephen Taylor, a Plainfield native who is state agriculture commissioner. "He's got this band of loonies up there right now. There's this constant traffic and helicopters overhead and everything. whoopee crazies."

The town south of bustling Lebanon has a "live-and-let-live" reputation that no one wants linked to the Browns, Taylor said.

"Everybody feels a tiny bit of embarrassment. This is what we're going to be known for?" Taylor said. "We don't want to be known for this."

The Browns' home on an isolated dirt roads includes a turret that offers a 360-degree view of the property and a driveway that is sometimes barricaded with SUVs.

Ed Brown, a retired exterminator, and his wife, a dentist, have bragged that the compound is self-sufficient and capable of running entirely on solar, wind and geothermal energies.

While saying repeatedly that he has no interest in harming the Browns or their supporters, Monier has not said what he does plan to do.

He says the massive law enforcement turnout on June 7, complete with roadblocks and planes, was for surveillance of the compound while agents seized the Lebanon building that housed Elaine Brown's dental practice.

But Ed Brown and many town residents believe it was a botched raid that apparently had to be called off when someone walking a dog stumbled onto federal agents in camouflage near the home.

"We were much better off before the federal government tried to take him into custody and it didn't go well," fumed town administrator Steve Halleran. "The fervor had died down. That was one of the things we were hoping, that people would go on to other things. But that's all by the wayside."

Weaver's news conference with the couple only added to local frustrations.

"That must've been a first. We've never really seen convicted felons just be able to hold press conferences," Halleran said. "There has to be a restriction of access to and from their property. If people can continue to visit them, to bring them supplies, with diesel fuel and food, they can stay there for a long time."....

Full Article:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/21/tax.evaders.ap/index.html
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2007, 09:00:54 PM »
"Ed Brown, a retired exterminator, and his wife, a dentist, have bragged that the compound is self-sufficient and capable of running entirely on solar, wind and geothermal energies."


well that proves they are a bunch of loonies.
:D