Author Topic: The God Arguement  (Read 8232 times)

Offline Shuckins

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The God Arguement
« Reply #225 on: June 26, 2007, 12:35:24 PM »
Phoo, how can you quote so much of the Bible and yet not understand it?

The quote "His blood be on us and on our children" was shouted in response to Pilate's statement "I am innocent of the blood of this just person.  See you to it."

While later Christians used this as justification for persecuting the Jews of the Diaspora, in the beginning Christians were simply a minor Jewis sect.  Early Christians observed the Jewish orders of worship and knelt in the temple.  They only separated from the main body of the Hebrew faith after the Jewish revolt against Roman rule circa 72 a.d.  This they did in order to survive Roman might and vengeance.  While Orthodox Jews were largely cast out of the Holy Land, becoming the Jews of the Diaspora, the fledgling Christian faith was, for the most part, left alone.

Modern Christians have, in many cases, returned to that ancient affiliation with the Jewish faith.  

As the matter of Hell and the inerrancy of scripture, I've already presented my views on that in an earlier post.  I believe the Word of God is inerrant, and Christians view Christ as The Word.  See the previous statements I made about the use of allegory and parables in the New Testament.

At no time did I state that "atheism caused" the Marxist dictatorships of the twentieth century.  Those systems adopted atheism as part of their law systems, as should be apparent to any serious student of the history of modern government systems.

Your attempt to paint modern Christianity as a momentarily subdued, yet dangerously subversive element in modern society is backed up by an attempt to tie it to the evils of the past.  That doesn't wash.  Christianity has been evolving toward a more tolerant and loving creed since the day, 500 years ago, when Martin Luther nailed his Theses to the door of the Church of Wittenberg.  The Reformation that followed transformed Christianity, and it has been slowly returning to its original teachings of peace and love ever since.

Islam has undergone no such transformation.  That is one reason that I said that all religions are not created equal.

You stated that all religions have suppressed others when it suited them.  Are you certain you want to stand by that statement, for you are professing a belief in an absolute.  Many modern atheists don't believe in absolutes.  Do you have any proof to back up that statement?  Do you know for a FACT that every religion has done this...or are you merely restating something a mentor has told you?

What I'm ultimately getting at here is that the source of evil resides not with God or atheism or religion.   It comes from man.  His evil is capable of corrupting anything.

So lay the blame where it truly lies.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 12:39:07 PM by Shuckins »

Offline phookat

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« Reply #226 on: June 26, 2007, 01:46:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
The quote "His blood be on us and on our children" was shouted in response to Pilate's statement "I am innocent of the blood of this just person.  See you to it."
It may be true that early Christians prayed in the Jewish temple.  That does not absolve the evil nature of this verse, which specifically incites anti-Semitism.  Martin Luther was an anti-Semite also, as I'm sure you know.  He wrote a little manifesto called "The Jews and Their Lies".  We can do well without any of this.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
At no time did I state that "atheism caused" the Marxist dictatorships of the twentieth century.
Good.  Then you agree that these dictatorships were not "in the name of atheism".  They disavowed supernatural religion and replaced it with worship of dictators.  Both are forms of religion.  Once again, no society went nuts following the principles of Jefferson and Paine.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Your attempt to paint modern Christianity as a momentarily subdued, yet dangerously subversive element in modern society is backed up by an attempt to tie it to the evils of the past.  That doesn't wash.  Christianity has been evolving toward a more tolerant and loving creed since the day, 500 years ago, when Martin Luther nailed his Theses to the door of the Church of Wittenberg.  The Reformation that followed transformed Christianity, and it has been slowly returning to its original teachings of peace and love ever since.
Do you suppose that the teachings of the Old Testament were teachings of "peace and love"?  These are the actual "original teachings".  Incitements to slavery, genocide, and all sorts of other complete evil is to be found in these scriptures.  So I agree that Christianity is "evolving" into a better system by ignoring all those barbaric parts, but in doing so it makes the tacit and unspoken admission that the supposed God was mistaken and imperfect and immoral in many cases.  It also shows that morality comes from us, not God--we humans judge the Bible and decide ourselves that certain parts are good and other parts are evil.  The less religion, the better.

Furthermore, what do you think would happen if the Dominionists had their way, and the US became a Christian theocracy?  A Protestant theocracy, even?  Do you think it would be all "peace and love"?  Would such a theocracy legally codify the 10 commandments and the penalties for disobeying them, for example?

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Islam has undergone no such transformation.  That is one reason that I said that all religions are not created equal.
No, what this means is that all religions are not treated with the same level of fanatic belief.  It is true that large parts of Islam have not been reformed and tamed--which can only be done if you ignore parts of this "unalterable final revelation".

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
You stated that all religions have suppressed others when it suited them.  Are you certain you want to stand by that statement, for you are professing a belief in an absolute.
You're right, remove the word "all".

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
What I'm ultimately getting at here is that the source of evil resides not with God or atheism or religion.   It comes from man.  His evil is capable of corrupting anything.

So lay the blame where it truly lies.
I agree the source of evil is man.  All the evil preached in religion comes from man, since religions are manmade.  All the good in religions comes from man also, for the same reason.

Offline lazs2

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The God Arguement
« Reply #227 on: June 26, 2007, 02:15:28 PM »
phoo... you keep going on and on about what I believe in and you are wrong every time.. now you claim that I am a christian who believes the bible to be literal truth.

give it up.    I say that my god would hate socialism and then you say that my god is a christian god who loves socialism.    

chair...  and moot...  words mean something.. it is really more than a matter of semantics lest.... well.. they "athiests' here would be quite happy to be agnostics... and why not?  unless they have an agenda that is both dishonest and not rooted in science.

I am just trying to get them to think if they have not and to be honest if they are not...

An agnostic admits he does not know...  the athiest says that he does know and he knows because he has faith... no science will sway him..

a believer is a believer based on faith when science can't explain...

There can be degrees of agnostisism.... many would be happy in that...  there can be no degrees in theism or athiesm... you either believe in a god or you don't and it is based soley on faith... it leaves science out of the equation..

To say that you are an athiest who admits the possibility of a god is to say you are agnostic or... scientific.

There is no such thing as "athiest light".

edit... as shuckins so elequently points out... even a cursory glance at any athiest website reveals the agenda.. it is not a scientific belief in the least... it is a religious fervor to mach the  most rabid inquisition christian.  It leaves out any possibility of god.

lazs
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 02:18:19 PM by lazs2 »

Offline Shuckins

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The God Arguement
« Reply #228 on: June 26, 2007, 03:19:20 PM »
The evil nature of the verse?  The author of this verse of scripture was reciting the facts as he knew them to be.  Truthful testimony is not evil.  Only later, much later, was it used as an excuse for the persecution of the Jews.

There has not always been agreement between the various sects of Christians or Jews as to the inerrancy of scripture.  Again, go back and read my earlier post.

A number of the books of the Old Testament are merely history.  Some of the ancient Jews maintained that the Torah, the first five books, were the only ones needed for the worship or instruction of the faithful.  The other books were added later, but hardly with unanimous support.

There has even been disagreement, also in ancient times, as to the exact nature of God (Yahweh).  There were some who disputed the belief that Yahweh was one and alone.  They believed he had a royal companion.  This particular sect eventually died out, but the fact remains that it existed.  

Does this negate the "truth" of the scriptures.  By no means.  Christ himself stated that he came not to negate the scriptures, but to fulfill them.  Many of his statements reflect his attempt to point out to the Pharisees and Sadducees their hypocrisy in abiding by the letter of the law, and not its spirit.  This is why he called them "whited sepulchres," bright and clean on the outside, but inside being filled with rotteness and corruption.

In another instance, He was presented with a woman caught in the act of adultery.  "Our laws state that she should be stoned to death.  What do you say?"  

Recognizing the hypocrisy of the accusers, for the man involved was most conspicuously NOT there for Him to judge, Christ said, "Let He among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

The accusers turned and left, for had no adequate response.

Is there any more beautiful and profound passage in the entire New Testament than that of The Sermon on the Mount?"  :   Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall see the Kingdom of God;  Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Any person who sincerely practices the core beliefs of Christianity need apologize for it.


Now, the Soviet Union and Communist China did not accept the teachings of Jefferson or Paine.  That isn't even the issue in this particular discussion.  These were modern dictatorships which adopted a sadistic and murderous brand of atheism.  In the judgement of history, that is an incontrovertible truth.

As to the danger of the U.S. Government becoming a theocracy, with the changing nature of Christian life and thought in modern times, it isn't likely to happen.  The vast majority of Christians would not want a theocracy.  While we may speak out against things that we deem to be evil, and prod the government to take action, you and your atheistic cohorts are free to do the same thing.  We all will win some of those struggles, and lose some of them.  That is as it should be.

Isn't democracy beautiful?

Lastly, I do not believe that Christianity is man made.  I believe Christ's teachings came directly from the Father, for the express purpose of correcting the error of man in the interpretation of the true nature and purpose of God.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 03:23:02 PM by Shuckins »

Offline E25280

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: phookat
« Reply #229 on: June 26, 2007, 08:26:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
So you don't believe in Hell?  What do you think happens to people who are condemned with "original sin" and do not accept Jesus as their saviour?  Here are the some of the passages in the Bible which talk about Hell:

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29-30
Matthew 18:9
Mark 9:43-47
Matthew 10:28
Luke 12:5
Mattthew 23:33
All of those passages refer to "Gehenna."  Gehenna was a real place in ancient Jerusalem . . . it was a place where garbage was incinerated.  The occasional criminal was sometimes sent there after execution to be cremated.  It clearly represents total destruction.  It is a fate that contrasts with the Everlasting Life promised to those who follow God's Will.

So, yes, I differ with many "Christian" teachings in this regard.  I do not believe in "Hell" as a place where people are condemned to eternal torment.
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #230 on: June 26, 2007, 08:36:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
The whole doctrine of vicarious forgiveness preached by Christians is in fact an elimination of personal responsibility.  Jesus's death forgives your unavoidable sins and sends you to Heaven.  He has no right to make any such claim.  If you steal money from someone, it is only the victim of your theft who is in a position to forgive you.  Vicarious forgiveness of crimes is an immoral idea, and is completely opposite to the idea of taking responsibility for your own actions.


Phoocat, you are nothing if not prolific in your responses. My apology for not keeping up. I would like to answer at least this of your statements. You aren't taking into consideration, or at least acknowledging, the responsibility of a Christian to Christ. This means dying to self. It is much harder than you might imagine if you've not endeavored to walk that path.
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Offline E25280

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« Reply #231 on: June 26, 2007, 08:39:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
its based on interpretation of what is written in the bible. As are all things christian.

quote:
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Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
—Rom. 5:18-21, ESV
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...but like any religious argument, especially a christian one, this will all boil down to intepretation with regards to the argument, not unlike the traditional 'well he's not a real christian' fallback.

p.s. given the church wrote the bible, how is it you differentiate the teachings?
Again, my point is that the "Original Sin" was that of Adam and Eve disobeying God.  God told them that if they ate from the Tree, they would die.  Had they not eaten from the tree; that is, had they continued in obedience to God's simple rules, they would have lived forever.

Read about two paragraphs above your quoted section, Romans 5:12: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned --"

But because they sinned, they did eventually die . . . as do all their offspring (including you and I).  Baptism can not reverse this fact.  That is what I was trying to get at.

Not sure if perhaps we are talking past one another?
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Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #232 on: June 26, 2007, 08:54:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
As I stated earlier, mankind is the only animal on the face of the earth capable of distinguishing between the two.


Only by your judgement, yet another fundamental christian flaw.

Offline Shuckins

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The God Arguement
« Reply #233 on: June 26, 2007, 09:23:16 PM »
Vulcan,

Prove it.  Prove that there are animals capable of distinguishing between right and wrong, of making moral judgements that cannot be explained by the presence of mere instinct.  In the absence of verbal communication between humans and other species it isn't possible to do so.

The closest we can come is with some of the great apes, and even then, drawing any concrete conclusions isn't possible.

Since you consider Christians to have fundamental flaws, would you say that atheists do too?  Would those flaws include intellectual arrogance, elitism, and bigotry?

Atheists do not have a monopoly on intellect, reasoning, wisdom, or virtue.

The vast majority of Americans are fully aware of the flaws of atheism, and that is one reason why I said earlier that they are not buying what atheism is selling.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #234 on: June 26, 2007, 09:32:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Vulcan,

Prove it.  Prove that there are animals capable of distinguishing between right and wrong, of making moral judgements that cannot be explained by the presence of mere instinct.  In the absence of verbal communication between humans and other species it isn't possible to do so.


It depends on your set of moral values.  If your moral code says that sleeping 17 hours a day, making the females get the food, and procreating with as many babes as possible is good, then Lions turn out to be very good morally.

Rogue males are feeling bad that they cannot measure up to the moral code.  They choose to challenge a pride lead male and according to the moral code, that is an acceptable choice.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 09:34:22 PM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline Donzo

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The God Arguement
« Reply #235 on: June 26, 2007, 10:23:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
I believe you are correct that it doesn't state this explicitly in the Bible.  There are some passages that indicate "the foundations of the earth" and "the earth doesn't move", and "the sun stayed in one place in the sky for an hour", things of that nature, which show that the writers of the Bible (and most everyone else before Galileo) thought the Earth was the stationary center of the universe.  I think the reason it wasn't explicitly stated is that it was too obvious.  Of course the Sun goes around the Earth, that doesn't need to be revealed to you.  On the contrary I think the lack of a description of the Helio-centric solar system in the Bible is very telling.


What are your thoughts on people such as weather-persons reporting the "sunrise" and "sunset" times?

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #236 on: June 27, 2007, 12:29:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Vulcan,

Prove it.  Prove that there are animals capable of distinguishing between right and wrong, of making moral judgements that cannot be explained by the presence of mere instinct.  In the absence of verbal communication between humans and other species it isn't possible to do so.

The closest we can come is with some of the great apes, and even then, drawing any concrete conclusions isn't possible.

Since you consider Christians to have fundamental flaws, would you say that atheists do too?  Would those flaws include intellectual arrogance, elitism, and bigotry?

Atheists do not have a monopoly on intellect, reasoning, wisdom, or virtue.

The vast majority of Americans are fully aware of the flaws of atheism, and that is one reason why I said earlier that they are not buying what atheism is selling.

Regards, Shuckins


Prove that all christian morals are right?

For example what is the christian moral stance on homosexuality, birth control, OTHER religions, a whole range of issues. Look at lazs, he labels me a dishonest person because I do not buy into the whole god fairy tale. Is that your christian morals you seek in apes?

Offline Angus

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« Reply #237 on: June 27, 2007, 06:42:16 AM »
Religion is the Opium of the people :D
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #238 on: June 27, 2007, 06:45:20 AM »
I believe the true quote is "Religion is the opiate of the masses"
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #239 on: June 27, 2007, 07:21:53 AM »
That, my friens is wrong.
It's..."Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)