Author Topic: Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of fair play  (Read 3647 times)

Offline Lusche

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Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of fair play
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2007, 02:22:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
[B
BTW  A plane with ENY of 30 is not a hotrod.
 [/B]


You're wrong on this.

For example the 109F-4 is one of the best furballers in game, enough to handle all the Hurri, Spits, p51s in game.

And ENY 40... I really would like to see a screenshot of that next time. I never saw ENY > 30 in one of the LW's. Even ENY> 20 is quite rare, you must have substantial numbers to get that high. And everytime the ENY goes up like this in EW & MW, it's usally a squad with >10 members rolling bases against two countries with maybe 2 players combined.
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Offline Hap

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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2007, 02:22:22 PM »
It all must work well for the business end of things or it would not exist.

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2007, 02:28:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Whats up with the F and the G2? lol.  Read your post and mine.  It will be LA7 vs TBM or SBD.  


Your post was " As far as the list of the planes you listed above, pick one and Ill get in a lala". He did pick any.  

BTW, you don't need DA to tulips plane performances. No fancy "boom" is needed to notice that you can't shake a plane from your six ;)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 02:31:58 PM by Lusche »
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Offline dedalos

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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2007, 02:49:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
You're wrong on this.

For example the 109F-4 is one of the best furballers in game, enough to handle all the Hurri, Spits, p51s in game.

And ENY 40... I really would like to see a screenshot of that next time. I never saw ENY > 30 in one of the LW's. Even ENY> 20 is quite rare, you must have substantial numbers to get that high. And everytime the ENY goes up like this in EW & MW, it's usally a squad with >10 members rolling bases against two countries with maybe 2 players combined.


:rofl That does not make it a hotrod.  In anycase, that is not my point.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2007, 02:53:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
Hurricane IIC had similar high K/Ds before the arenasplit,  for example 1.46 in Tour 75 (randomly picked).
The split may have increased the numbers, but only to a very small degree because there is much less combat there, numbers varying between 3 - 10% of LW population.

 

It already does.  ENY considerations are not that simplicistic for sure.
Popularity isn't the base for ENY alone . Also you'r example is flawed, because it just won't ever happen.
The other planes don't have ENY 5 just because they are popular. They are popular because of their performance. They have ENY because (to a degree) to their performance.


To continue using tour 75 as an example -

If you remove all ground targets its K/D drops to 1.19.
Thats against fighters and buffs only.

What is needed is a tour pre split and pre ENY, that would give a better picture.

I know the Spit Ia thing won't ever happen, it was a theory.
And yes it would get an ENY of 5 if it happened, every other popular plane did EXCEPT the PonyD.
Funny how what is basically a 1943 LF IX (XVI) is rated up there with 1945/44 birds.
Even accounting for the 50cals it's still a pre July 1944 LF IXe.

Yet there are 1944/45 birds with ENY's of 20+

XVI ENY is primarily because it's popular, not performance.
Only reason the VIII isn't ENY 5 is it isn't so popular, bearing in mind performance wise (apart from roll) they are all but identical.

All I'm asking for is for a planes ENY to based on its performance, not its popularity, not if its 'easy' to fly (subjective anyway).
Also for planes that are in all arenas the ENY should get higher as you progress from EW --> MW --> LW
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 02:57:16 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline dedalos

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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2007, 02:55:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
Your post was " As far as the list of the planes you listed above, pick one and Ill get in a lala". He did pick any.  

BTW, you don't need DA to tulips plane performances. No fancy "boom" is needed to notice that you can't shake a plane from your six ;)


Ahhh, true, but he told people about the TBM and the SBD and since the original post was about CV planes I thought he may want to show me how to use them lol.  

You really think he will see my 6?  This is not going to be about pilot skill but about planes.  You think if I use the lala to its straingths he will actually have a shot? :rofl  What I don't want is a singe ping from 1K out and him going you are dead on vox (not that has ever happened in the TA, just saing)

Whats wrong with the DA?  It will take all and any questions about the outcome of the fight away.  I guess that could be the problem?

We could do the pilot thing afterwards.  We can do F4s or 5" guns, whatever he feels more confortable in.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline P47Gra

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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2007, 03:02:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Meatwad
Easiest fix is to disable the ENY rule


I agree totally.

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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2007, 03:08:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
I have bad news for you.  This is not millitary school.  Its a game.  No one needs to graduate from anything.  An ENY of 40 does not take the beasts away.  It takes a lot more.  Personaly I could not care less.  I can do fine in a 202 but that is not the point.  I made my point above.

BTW  A plane with ENY of 30 is not a hotrod.

See, you are not reading.  I said DA.  I am not going to take your word for when I died.  You ll have to make me go boom boom not pew pew pew I just killd your left flapz.  Whats up with the F and the G2? lol.  Read your post and mine.  It will be LA7 vs TBM or SBD.  According to you, they are fine planes to take into a fight.  Show us.  Then we will do F4 vs F4 and maybe some 5" guns latter eh?


The only guy here with a reading problem is you.

Here's what I stated, try to follow it: "I would not feel outclassed in most of these, especially the P-38G, P-40E, P-47D-11, F4U-1,109F, 109G2, 109G-6 and 190A-5, all of which can handle anything that comes along. The F4U-1 is quite good and the main ride for several top pilots. The P-38G can haul 2k in bombs and is fearsome in a dogfight. Moreover, the P-40E can be a real handful if it has a good pilot. Then there's the 190A-5, a first class ride and a terrific plane in which to pick off the clueless. The Jug is very lethal and something not to be underestimated. My favorite 109 is the G-2, capable of abusing any of the low ENY hotrods. If you think any of the above are not capable, come see me in the TA one evening and I'll be happy to demonstrate what they are able to do."

I don't see the SBD or TBM in there... And I offered the TA because that's where I'll be.

My comments on the SBD/TBM were: "Most carrier fighters are disabled? Grab an SBD and have a ball. It'll gobble up almost any fighter if the pilot is silly enough to try turning with it. Ditto for the TBM. Plus, the TBM can haul 2k in bombs, and six rockets. Forget the rear guns, fly it like a fighter and enjoy the chance to humble the dweebs."

TBMs and SBDs are great fun to take into a fight, especially a low and slow furball. I do it all the time. You've never gone out looking for a fight in an SBD? If not, you're missing a lot of fun.

Why don't you like the TA? Not sure you're dead? Not sure if you hit them hard enough for a kill? Believe me, people know when they've been hosed and you'll know when you score well. I've dueled Nomak, Skyrock, Stang, 2bighorn, Platano, Creton, Murdr, TC, Batfink, Slapshot, Timmpa, Urchin and a dozen others in the TA. We all had fun and everyone of us understood when we had been beaten. These duels were about having fun, not measuring winkies. If you want to have some fun, stop in. My obligation is in the TA tonight and Friday night. That's where you can find me...

My regards,

Widewing
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Offline DadRabit

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« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2007, 03:21:30 PM »
i just cant see having a ball flying a TBM or SBD in a furball.  whenever i see them i start to drool.
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Offline dedalos

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« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2007, 03:31:33 PM »
My comments on the SBD/TBM were: "Most carrier fighters are disabled? Grab an SBD and have a ball. It'll gobble up almost any fighter if the pilot is silly enough to try turning with it. Ditto for the TBM. Plus, the TBM can haul 2k in bombs, and six rockets. Forget the rear guns, fly it like a fighter and enjoy the chance to humble the dweebs."

Yep.  Bring it on.  Come gobble me up.  The assumption that anyone would try to turn with an SBD is silly at best.  There is no reason to.

What is wrong with the DA?  This is not about fun and not about measuring anything other than LA7 beats SBD.  But you can use the G2 or G6 if you like.  The results will be the same.  All this is besides the point though.  This was an argument about ENY not about how good you could do in the planes you listed and not about you telling people what to fly and when.

My obligation in the DA or any of the arenas.  Ill see you there.  

Holding breath now, lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2007, 04:51:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
My comments on the SBD/TBM were: "Most carrier fighters are disabled? Grab an SBD and have a ball. It'll gobble up almost any fighter if the pilot is silly enough to try turning with it. Ditto for the TBM. Plus, the TBM can haul 2k in bombs, and six rockets. Forget the rear guns, fly it like a fighter and enjoy the chance to humble the dweebs."

Yep.  Bring it on.  Come gobble me up.  The assumption that anyone would try to turn with an SBD is silly at best.  There is no reason to.

What is wrong with the DA?  This is not about fun and not about measuring anything other than LA7 beats SBD.  But you can use the G2 or G6 if you like.  The results will be the same.  All this is besides the point though.  This was an argument about ENY not about how good you could do in the planes you listed and not about you telling people what to fly and when.

My obligation in the DA or any of the arenas.  Ill see you there.  

Holding breath now, lol


I really tried, honestly. I gave the benefit of the doubt. I reiterated to make sure I was clear. I explained things in a concise and easy to understand manner.

Nonetheless, you have utterly missed the point... I'm not surprised.

Let's see if you can follow this, it isn't difficult: I am scheduled to be in the TA tonight and tomorrow night. Understand? That's a commitment. I have people scheduled for Training. I can, however, set aside a few minutes to play tag and we'll see if you're the hotshot you think you are.

You know where, you know when, I've said it three times already. Show up or go away.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

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Offline Ghastly

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« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2007, 09:20:30 PM »
It's HTC's game, they can (obviously) do what they want with it.  

And I do like the concept of ENY, as I understood it originally - a mechanism to prevent one side from steamrolling the other side.  But the problem is that in practice, I can't honestly say I've ever seen it doing that.  I see an awful lot of 80% of the players on a side at one front, while the remaining 20% are trying to defend the other front at 5 to 1 odds against the 80% of the players playing for that country which are pitted against them - (and getting generally steamrolled of course in the process).  

Way too much of the time it seems as though the choice when you sign in is to join the big bunch and whomp on one side or join the little bunch and get whomped on.  And even when I've seen ENY kick in, it doesn't generally seem to change that in the slightest.  Some guys log, and a bunch of guys sit in the tower and complain, and the majority continue trying to overwhelm the other side with numbers, usually with enough of a numbers advantage to negate the limitations of the aircraft they've been limited to.

In fact, the biggest impact ENY has from what I can see is usually on the "forgotten" guys who were already locally outnumbered trying to defend at the other end at the map - who give up trying to defend at that point and go join the herd at the other end. From what I can see the higher ENY climbs, the more it simply concentrates the players further in one giant herd as everyone groups up.  

My biggest frustration the other night was that I'd spent the night flying from the CV along side a bunch of guys, and as soon as the Rooks took a field, a significant number of players on the other side logged, and the CV mission - which was 2 1/2 or 3 sectors away from any furball I might add - stalled and fell apart completely.

I can fly any plane in the game and do reasonably well in it.  It wasn't about the choice of plane - except by proxy, the plane (F6F) that was chosen for the mission was ENY'ed out at launch time and the whole thing turned into  a CF, fell apart, and the night ended abruptly as the mission splintered.

I was upset because a game mechanic which adds very little to my PERSONAL enjoyment of the game - and which moreover doesn't seem do do diddlysquat if I understand what it's supposed to do - managed to end something I had been enjoying abruptly, stone cold.

Maybe ENY should be set for each player at the point where it is when they log in or change sides - and remain at that level until they log out or change sides again.  At least then it would encourage sideswitching to the lower side when you log in and discourage switching to the higher side later in the game. It would also end the current nonsense of sitting in the tower hoping to wait it out, and it wouldn't interfere and penalize those players who chose a side when the numbers were even.  Nor would it further handicap those players who are already fighting with a local numbers disadvantage.

Or even better yet it should be applied locally in the first place, and then it might actually work (if the intent is to even the playing field).

Unless of course the intent is to have players simply log in frustration, in which case there's no reason to change it at all - from what I can see it does a pretty good job of it already.

That's all.  Rant over.  

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 09:25:12 PM by Ghastly »
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Offline ink

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« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2007, 09:56:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
You're wrong on this.

For example the 109F-4 is one of the best furballers in game, enough to handle all the Hurri, Spits, p51s in game.

 


Lushe
i have to disagree, maybe in your hands that 109f-4 is one of the best,
but if you were in hurri and 109 attacked you what would happen?
 i kill 109s easy in my hurri, but its not planes im killin its pilots,
i also shot down a 109k4 in p40 e(couple times), out turned a zero in that same p40
  and then i was in my hurri2c and along comes this 109 and out turns me.
i think what i am trying to say is plane doesn't matter so much,
 pilot skill is 9o% of  the determining factor to the out come of an engagement,
5% is plane
5% is initial advantage
 any other factor that might be brought into the equation falls under pilot skill. that is why i feel pilot skill is so important


Offline Widewing

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« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2007, 10:33:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghastly

I can fly any plane in the game and do reasonably well in it.  It wasn't about the choice of plane - except by proxy, the plane (F6F) that was chosen for the mission was ENY'ed out at launch time and the whole thing turned into  a CF, fell apart, and the night ended abruptly as the mission splintered.
might actually work (if the intent is to even the playing field).


Well, I can see how that would be supremely annoying. Someone should post a request on the Wishlist forum asking that once a mission is posted, the planes are locked in regardless of ENY. That's only fair considering that some guys spend quite a bit of time planning a mission. Moreover, other players may have been sitting in a tower for 15 to 20 minutes waiting when they could have been doing something else. It's not like that plane is available to all, just the few joining the mission.

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Widewing
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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2007, 10:38:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ink
Lushe
i have to disagree, maybe in your hands that 109f-4 is one of the best,
but if you were in hurri and 109 attacked you what would happen?


Both pilots being at least average sticks of same skill level? The 109F pilot would utilize his power advantage and take the fight into the vertical instead of simple flat turning with the HurriII. Having both greater ROC & level speed, he can disengage and reengage at will.
And take note that full flaps out both turn radius and turn rate are very close, so the HurriII has a small turnign advantage but a huge power/climb/speed/acceleration disadvantage.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 10:41:43 PM by Lusche »
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