Author Topic: For all you voters... (Read 6125 times)

Karnak · « **Reply #30 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:29:21 PM »

The Spit IXs were almost certainly powered by Merlin 66s like the the Spitfire Mk VIII in AH, not the older Merlin 61 like the Spitfire Mk IX in AH.

The Me410 in question was performing a photo-recon mission.

And no, I obviously don't base everything on that one encounter. The Me410 was only successful in comparison to the Me210, which was a dismal failure. It lacked the performance needed to be of use to the Luftwaffe when it came into service.

I like the Me410, it is a facinating aircraft. I would love to see it added to AH and in the voting it is what I chose until it was eliminated. However, it was also not nearly as good as the A-26, Mosquito or P-38. I just object to people making things sound better than they are in a sales pitch.

Viking · « **Reply #31 on:** July 13, 2007, 02:29:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
And no, I obviously don't base everything on that one encounter. The Me410 was only successful in comparison to the Me210, which was a dismal failure. It lacked the performance needed to be of use to the Luftwaffe when it came into service.

That is perhaps your opinion, but it has nothing to do with reality. The Me 410 was a very successful bomber destroyer until it found itself outnumbered by single-engined fighters over Europe. In the east the 410 was a very successful fighter-bomber

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
I like the Me410, it is a facinating aircraft. I would love to see it added to AH and in the voting it is what I chose until it was eliminated. However, it was also not nearly as good as the A-26, Mosquito or P-38. I just object to people making things sound better than they are in a sales pitch.

Talk about sales pitch! The WWII-era A-26B/C could only manage 355 mph top speed. The only advantage it had over the Me 410 was a greater maximum bomb load. The Mosquito was a very successful plane, but mostly as bomber, recce and night fighter with the excellent high-alt Merlin engines. As a day fighter-bomber the Mossie FB.VI was only good for low-alt hit and run missions.

The Mossie FB made very few aces (if any) and the greatest Mossie NF ace (who flew for almost the entire war I might add) barely managed a quarter of the victories of his German counterpart flying the 110G. The Me 410 made more aces than the Mossie and A-26 AND P-38 (including in the Pacific) combined. And don't give me any crap about US and British airmen serving only short "tours", Richard Bong recorded his first kill in 1942 and fought in the Pacific until he was sent home to do propaganda tours in December 1944. Thomas McGuire flew from 1943 to his death in 1945. Edward Dixon Crew (leading Mossie NF ace) flew from 1941 to 1944 (and 21 of his 34 kills were V-1s). Same with the second leading Mossie NF ace John R. D. Braham (29 kills); he flew from '41 to '44.

The Me 410 flew from 1943 against the USAAF and RAF until the summer of 1944 when the entire Luftwaffe were largely destroyed in the west by overwhelming allied numbers. In the east it soldiered on until the end of the war.

Of all the twin-(piston) engined fighters of WWII only the P-38 was better than the Me 410 ... in my opinion.

Karnak · « **Reply #32 on:** July 13, 2007, 03:14:03 AM »

There were quite a few pilots who aced in the Mosquito VI. Perhaps you should read some before you prattle about things you don't know about.

As to the Me410 being good at killing bombers until Allied singles showed up, well, that would be, oh, before the Me410 was in heavy use.

As to your spurious claim about "barely managed a quarter of the victories of his German counterpart flying the 110G" we both know why that was. One was in a target rich enviornment (aka, losing the war) and the other went for weeks without finding a German aircraft. Hence we also have Johnie Johnson with 38 kills compared to Erich Hartman with 352 kills. Suddenly a 1/4th is a much better looking ratio than Johnson's 1/9th total of Hartman's.

Read some books about the Mossie and the RAF and you'll find that your version of evens is way, WAY off of reality. There is a reason the RAF order more FB.VIs than any other version by far. There is a reason that the post war RAF OOB was dominated by Mosquitos, including your "Could only do hit and run FB.VI".

The Me410 played a very small role compared to the FB.VI, let alone the Mossie.

As to the A-26, well, it was designed for one role, one with it did much, much better than the Me410 did (or the Mossie or P-38 for that matter). Neither the Me410, P-38 nor Mosquito stood any chance of being used into the 1960s by a first teir airforce like the A-26 was, regardless of the outcome of WWII.

The Me410 had nasty stall characteristics (though not as bad as the Me210), useless tail guns, high wing loading and middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction.

I have no doubt it did well on the east front as long as the Germans had something like parity in the air. Once that was gone I can't see the Me410 surviving Yak-9s and La-5FNs any better than it would P-47s, P-51s and Spitfires.

Viking · « **Reply #33 on:** July 13, 2007, 05:32:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
There were quite a few pilots who aced in the Mosquito VI. Perhaps you should read some before you prattle about things you don't know about.

Then why don’t you mention a couple of them. After all, you're the Mossie buff, not I.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
As to the Me410 being good at killing bombers until Allied singles showed up, well, that would be, oh, before the Me410 was in heavy use.

The Me 410 was good at bomber interception as long as the allies didn't have a vast numerical superiority. In 1943 and 1944 the Me 410 was very successful in that role, and the allied escorts started showing up in 1943. I know you know this, so I assume you're just being disingenuous ... seeing how this discussion seems like a "grudge match" to you.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
As to your spurious claim about "barely managed a quarter of the victories of his German counterpart flying the 110G" we both know why that was. One was in a target rich enviornment (aka, losing the war) and the other went for weeks without finding a German aircraft

For the first four years of the war the Germans sent almost nightly bombing raids to England. Also the Mossie NF operated over France and Germany, so if they had trouble finding the enemy that says more about their abilities than any lack of targets.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
There is a reason the RAF order more FB.VIs than any other version by far. There is a reason that the post war RAF OOB was dominated by Mosquitos, including your "Could only do hit and run FB.VI".

Well, only 2,718 Mossie FB.VI were built, and the Mossies hardly "dominated" the RAF OOB after the war. Even in 1947 there were still 16 Spitfire squadrons and the RN operated Seafires until 1954. Also more Spits were made after the war than Mossies.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 played a very small role compared to the FB.VI, let alone the Mossie.

I don't see the Mossie having a big role in the war at all. And compared to the Zerstörers (110/210/410) in total the Mossie played a minor role. The 410 was a far more important aircraft to the Germans in 1943-44 than the Mossie was to the allies.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
As to the A-26, well, it was designed for one role, one with it did much, much better than the Me410 did (or the Mossie or P-38 for that matter). Neither the Me410, P-38 nor Mosquito stood any chance of being used into the 1960s by a first teir airforce like the A-26 was, regardless of the outcome of WWII.

That the US used obsolete aircraft into the '60s in ground attack roles is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. It would be equally irrelevant to note that the 109 also served into the 1960s and was even still in production in 1957.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 had nasty stall characteristics (though not as bad as the Me210), useless tail guns, high wing loading and middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction.

I have never read that the Me 410 had nasty stall characteristics. The tail guns (once the bugs were worked out on the 210) were very effective (or as effective as any tail gun could be) and the remote control system was praised by the Russians and Allies alike when they captured an intact 410.

At the time of its introduction the 410 was the second fastest twin engined fighter in the word, second only to the P-38G/H which was only 12/14 mph faster at that time. The fighter and night-fighter versions of the Mossie in 1943 had worse performance than the 410. Only the high-altitude bomber and recce versions of the Mossie were faster than the Me 410 in 1943, anything with guns on it was slower. The night-bomber version of the Me 410 proved an elusive target for the RAF; not until 1944 did the RAF field a NF that could catch it (edit: that doesn't mean they didn't shoot one down on occasion).

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
I have no doubt it did well on the east front as long as the Germans had something like parity in the air. Once that was gone I can't see the Me410 surviving Yak-9s and La-5FNs any better than it would P-47s, P-51s and Spitfires.

Same as with the Mossie FB.VI if the Germans had them in the east.

Viking · « **Reply #34 on:** July 13, 2007, 08:42:03 AM »

Btw. I'll be away this weekend, so you have plenty of time to formulate a response.

Bye for now.

Angus · « **Reply #35 on:** July 13, 2007, 09:12:24 AM »

"The Me 410 was a very successful bomber destroyer until it found itself outnumbered by single-engined fighters over Europe."

The little scrap I have in my head about the 210 and 410 is as not important and a failiure.

As being outnumbered by single engined fighters, - it could not outrun or outmaneuver them.
A fine aircraft, after some complications (?), but too late.
But I have the weekend to read up

Karnak · « **Reply #36 on:** July 13, 2007, 09:56:17 AM »

Viking,

It is clear you know next to nothing about the Mosquito, its service, its aircrews, its versions and introduction dates or its importantance.

For fun, I counted up the Mossie kills of Me410s last night. 61, including the probables and discounting any of the unidentified aircraft being Me410s. First kill in July, 1943 (a little after the probable service entry of the Me410) through 1944, then suddenly no more Me410 kills. Still lots of Bf109, Bf110, Fw190, Ju88, Ju188, Do217, He111 and He219 kills, even an Me262 kill, but not one Me410 kill from late 1944 to the end of the war. Kind of made me wonder why not?

Viking · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2007, 11:31:11 AM »

Change of plans. Won’t be leaving until tomorrow.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Viking,

It is clear you know next to nothing about the Mosquito, its service, its aircrews, its versions and introduction dates or its importantance.

Instead of insulting my intelligence with your pathetic evading why don’t you just give me a few names of Mossie FB.VI aces? I mean I found the NF aces quite readily on the web, and you’re supposed to be the more knowledgeable on the Mossie, or so you claim. And why don’t you just tell me which armed Mossies were faster than the Me 410 in 1943?

Perhaps because you can’t?

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
For fun, I counted up the Mossie kills of Me410s last night. 61, including the probables and discounting any of the unidentified aircraft being Me410s. First kill in July, 1943 (a little after the probable service entry of the Me410) through 1944, then suddenly no more Me410 kills. Still lots of Bf109, Bf110, Fw190, Ju88, Ju188, Do217, He111 and He219 kills, even an Me262 kill, but not one Me410 kill from late 1944 to the end of the war. Kind of made me wonder why not?

No need to wonder, I’ll tell you: After the near complete destruction of the Luftwaffe in the west by June 1944 all surviving 410’s in the west were used for recon missions exclusively. It was one of the very few planes they had left that could do the job. What bombers the Germans had left would of course continue to bomb Britain, but after the “emergency fighter program” went into effect the bomber and zerstörer units would no longer receive any replacement aircraft.

So the NF’s got 61 Me 410 kills in a year of night operations and intruder missions by KG2 and KG51. Not very impressive. In the latter half of 1943 and early 1944 the Me 410 raided Britton almost at will, and even in April 1944 a flight of 410’s followed a group of US bombers back to their base and attacked them after they had landed, destroying several aircraft. The British dubbed this one-year period of attacks the “Baby Blitz”. Then came June, and the end of the Luftwaffe as an effective fighting force in the west.

Viking · « **Reply #38 on:** July 13, 2007, 11:38:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
But I have the weekend to read up

Do that, you won't be sorry. It's a very intriguing aircraft.

Karnak · « **Reply #39 on:** July 13, 2007, 11:56:43 AM »

Viking,

I have a complete list of Mosquito kills. The vast majority are Bf109s, Bf110s, Do217s, Fw190s, Ju88s, Ju188s and He111s. The number of Bf110s shot down is quite sizable.

The fact is that the Me410 made up a small percentage of the Luftwaffe strength. In addition Mosquitoes were greatly hampered by RAF Fighter Command's policies that denied any AI equipped fighter to penetrate enemy airspace until 1944.

The Me410 did 385mph. You claimed that made it the second fastest twin after the P-38 when it was introduced. Various marks of Mosquitoes at that time were already faster than that.

P-47s were in common use as escort fighters at the time of the Me410's introduction. P-51s get the glory, but it was largely P-47s that broke the Luftwaffe in the west.

You highlight the Me410s successes, but overlook things such as how insignificant the mini-Blitz was. Heck, RAF Bomber Command dropped more tons of bombs in a six hour stretch on one night on one city in 1944 than the Luftwaffe did on London over the entire Blitz.

Viking · « **Reply #40 on:** July 13, 2007, 12:58:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Viking,

I have a complete list of Mosquito kills. The vast majority are Bf109s, Bf110s, Do217s, Fw190s, Ju88s, Ju188s and He111s. The number of Bf110s shot down is quite sizable.

The fact is that the Me410 made up a small percentage of the Luftwaffe strength. In addition Mosquitoes were greatly hampered by RAF Fighter Command's policies that denied any AI equipped fighter to penetrate enemy airspace until 1944.

The Me410 did 385mph. You claimed that made it the second fastest twin after the P-38 when it was introduced. Various marks of Mosquitoes at that time were already faster than that.

P-47s were in common use as escort fighters at the time of the Me410's introduction. P-51s get the glory, but it was largely P-47s that broke the Luftwaffe in the west.

You highlight the Me410s successes, but overlook things such as how insignificant the mini-Blitz was. Heck, RAF Bomber Command dropped more tons of bombs in a six hour stretch on one night on one city in 1944 than the Luftwaffe did on London over the entire Blitz.

The Me 410 had a top speed of 388 mph. And I made the claim it was the fastest twin-engined fighter after the P-38, and that only the high-alt recon and bomber Mossies were faster. All armed Mossies were slower than the Me 410 in 1943. I see now you're trying to wiggle out of this ... unfortunate truth.

I still see no Mossie FB.VI aces. I still see no 1943 armed mossies that were faster than the Me 410. I'm beginning to think you were just talking out of the wrong end of your gastrointestinal tract.

F.II/NF.II? Nope. 370 mph.
FB.VI? Nope. 380 mph.
NF.XII? Nope. 370 mph.
NF.XIII? Nope. 380 mph.
NF.XVII? Nope. 370 mph.
NF.XIX? Nope. 379 mph.

NF.30 YES! 410 mph in what? Late 1944?

Please point to where I'm wrong or what mark of armed Mossie I missed that actually had a top speed of more than 388 mph.

Wolfala · « **Reply #41 on:** July 13, 2007, 01:07:40 PM »

Not to bring up an obvious point on the A-26, but we've still got hem being used in California and the Pacific North West as fire bombers as well as up in Canada. Granted they were hopped up in the 60s from Onmark down in Ventura - but the fact they are still being used in a fast attack role - even if putting out fires instead of starting them is testament to the design.

Wolf

Viking · « **Reply #42 on:** July 13, 2007, 01:13:31 PM »

Oh yes, they were excellent aircraft, and looked incredibly cool. No argument there!

Karnak · « **Reply #43 on:** July 13, 2007, 02:09:04 PM »

Where did you get those speeds? They are not all correct.

B.XVI is 416.

NF.30 is 424.

FB.VI is 390 without the dampers as I recall. Have to look it up at home.

Viking · « **Reply #44 on:** July 13, 2007, 02:35:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Where did you get those speeds? They are not all correct.

From several web pages. For such a distinguished aircraft there are few good Mossie sites out there with information on the various variants. Basically had to google each and every variant.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
B.XVI is 416.

NF.30 is 424.

FB.VI is 390 without the dampers as I recall. Have to look it up at home.

I never mentioned a B.XVI. B.XVI is not an armed Mossie, but a 1944 bomber variant with 70-series Merlins. Why do you persist with bringing bombers and late-war variants into the discussion? NF.30 can be 5000 mph for all its irrelevance: Late 1944. As for the modified FB.VI: Yes you've argued that for a long time. I've never seen any evidence though (doesn't mean you haven't presented it). In any case there are no jury-rigged Mossies in AH, and probably never will be. HiTech's against that sort of thing it seems.

In any case a modified Mosquito doing 390 mph is TWO mph faster than the aircraft you said had "middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction". Sounds like hypocrisy at its finest to me. Where are the FB.VI aces? I couldn't find any.