I hate russia.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Neubob
Kal 007 was a terrible mistake, and if it wasn't a mistake, it was a crime for which those responsible deserved and deserve punishment. Airspace is not more important than human life, and national pride is not more important than justice.

These are the words of a Russian.

The problem is that KAL 007 is not an isolated incident. There are litterary dozens of examples of russian forces opening fire on aircraft in international airspace.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund
The problem is that KAL 007 is not an isolated incident. There are litterary dozens of examples of russian forces opening fire on aircraft in international airspace.

KAL 007 was shot in Soviet airspace. If it indeed was a 747, not an RC-135. That story will probably never disclosed, according to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning. How can anyone explain that there were no human bodies found in the wreck? only clothes and shoes in factory packages, never worn... I sell it for the same money I bought it, bit it was mentioned in Izvestia's articles in early-90s, when the overall attitude was "ohoh bloody commies amen Americans will save us and show us the Way!".

Whatever Toad will say - RC-135s were violating Soviet airspace several times every week, and using poor Koreans as a sitting duck for testing PVO sequences was a bright idea, someone probably got promoted... And the propaganda effect was enormous.

[Angus]

Dear Boroda.
Thank you for the link to this book, I will probably buy it.
Although the author is a non-Russian it does not validate it. David Irving is also a Brit, and what he writes is mostly a load of crap, but with a few points in it.
Sort of like many of your posts.
You can try all day to convince me that the USSR had to invade Finland, annex the Baltic states, and share Poland with Hitler for the USSR defensive side, - but I don't fall for that.
I think USSR was wanting a Communist Europe, and used every chesspiece and excuse to try to get it that way. With or without force, the goal was one.
It must have disappointed the USSR in the pre-war years, - i.e. after Hitler took power and before the Ribbentropf-Molotov pact that I told you about, that the British tried to keep a non-war and disarming atmosphere. The British actually went into disarmament (periodically) themselves in the late 1930's. Silly them.
So, of course the USSR had to defend from Hitler by invasion, annex, sharing and trade.
Some way to make allies I say.
Making war with Finland definately strengthened Russian lines and troops. War and annex definately raised the status of the USSR amongst other nations. And selling materials to Hitler definately strengthened USSR material balance and defence against him.

Anyway, lesson out, and I wish you a good day.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Neubob

These are the words of a Russian.

Originally posted by Neubob

I've lived in the States for most of my life, and thus will never call my place of birth 'home'. But Russia will always be my Rodina.

[/b]

No offense but those two statements don't really match up.

I think you know what I'm getting out. The two current Russians in this thread don't think the way you or I do about KAL 007 and all the rest of the many, many, many people who died in international airspace.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
KAL 007 was shot in Soviet airspace. If it indeed was a 747, not an RC-135. That story will probably never disclosed, according to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning. How can anyone explain that there were no human bodies found in the wreck? only clothes and shoes in factory packages, never worn... I sell it for the same money I bought it, bit it was mentioned in Izvestia's articles in early-90s, when the overall attitude was "ohoh bloody commies amen Americans will save us and show us the Way!".

Whatever Toad will say - RC-135s were violating Soviet airspace several times every week, and using poor Koreans as a sitting duck for testing PVO sequences was a bright idea, someone probably got promoted... And the propaganda effect was enormous.

This is amazing. You are just making **** up, and then use the made-up **** to fake anger at the US. "According to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning"...priceless.

Why were no bodies found? Well, hmm...could it have something to do with the fact that the soviets lied about where the aircraft was shot down, and therefore had unlimited access to the wreckage for several days?

KAL 007 was shot down in soviet airspace, yes. A passenger jet was shot down in soviet airspace. A boeing 747 was deliberately shot down by the soviets because it had crossed into soviet airspace.

How Reagan was right, you really are the evil empire.

[gpwurzel]

What I do not understand is the systematic filing and comparison of attrocities in an effort to prove who was the worst ever. One person gives examples of Russian attrocities on Germans, another retorts with German attrocities on Russians. What's the point? Can anybody here say, with a straight face, that there's a group of innocent people that suffered more than the Russians in WWII? More than the Jews? More than the Germans? More than the Japanese? Is the suffering of any one group more significant, more meaningful than that of any other? And conversely, do any of the attrocities committed by the Russians, Germans, Japanese, or anyone else involved fall short of extreme?

Suffering and death, as well as cruelty, of that magnitude, is horrendous to the maximum degree. All aforementioned parties endured 100% of what a group of humans could or should ever have to endure. All oppressors oppressed to an equal degree. There is no worse thing. Comparing 100,000 raped and murdered against 120,000 raped and murdered in an effort to see who won or lost the game of 'less cruel aggressor' is a futile mockery of everyone who lived, or died there.

Nicely put Neubob, and I couldnt agree more!!



Wurzel

[Boroda]

Neubob, I hate to see that my country is turned into a scapegoat, idiots all around repeating that Russia is the source of all evil in the world and even compare it to nazi Germany. People seem to have TV antenna installed instead of a brain, repeating such obvious nonsense as "62 million people killed by commies in USSR".

As Ian Anderson sang: "I may make you feel but I can't make you think"

Ignorance is power this days. Reading a book or two that will give reasonable explanations instead of "Russians are naturally evil" or "Stalin just enjoyed killing people" is out of question, TV rulez, they can't lie. And they call _me_ brainwashed, while I have read all their book plus some Soviet once.

I watched a TV programm on History Channel in Australia, about Eastern Front. They had Soviet veterans speaking, with English subtitles. They edited some prepositions, used "almost-synonyms" instead of some words and changed what Veterans said 180 degrees... Made them look as bloodthirsty monsters. So it goes.

[mentalguy]

Originally posted by Boroda
according to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down  

And what about the other studies?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
KAL 007 was shot in Soviet airspace. If it indeed was a 747, not an RC-135.....

.....Whatever Toad will say - RC-135s were violating Soviet airspace several times every week, and using poor Koreans as a sitting duck for testing PVO sequences was a bright idea, someone probably got promoted... And the propaganda effect was enormous.

This is exactly what I am talking about. If you read the transcript on the Russian side of the KAL 007 transcript, you'll see the head guy, who was late promoted to command of the entire Soviet AF, was absolutely frantic when they didn't shoot the 747 down when it first crossed Soviet airspace and was in international airspace once again. Then it entered Soviet airspace over a tiny flyspeck island and the guy goes nuts trying to hurry the fighter into shooting. Blood lust.

As for it being an RC-135. Nope. The RC community was and still is very small. I would have heard. Didn't happen.

As for RC's violating Soviet airspace... pure BS. Two very senior navigators on board, a stellar/inertial astrotracker accurate to 1/8 mile after 10 hours of flight, separate position crosschecks every 30 minutes using completely different sources for info, all radar recorded on film and scored after every mission. Any crew that got inside 12 miles would have lost their job at best.

Of course, I think the Soviets claimed sovereign airspace 200 miles out from the coastline back then, so from their POV you were in their airspace at 100 miles. Too bad ICAO did not agree.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund
This is amazing. You are just making **** up, and then use the made-up **** to fake anger at the US. "According to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning"...priceless.

Why were no bodies found? Well, hmm...could it have something to do with the fact that the soviets lied about where the aircraft was shot down, and therefore had unlimited access to the wreckage for several days?

KAL 007 was shot down in soviet airspace, yes. A passenger jet was shot down in soviet airspace. A boeing 747 was deliberately shot down by the soviets because it had crossed into soviet airspace.

How Reagan was right, you really are the evil empire.

And we also crucified Christ. Didn't Gorbachev say it? I thought he provided some documental proof to Poland and Poles classified it immediately.

Look for "Incident at Sakhalin; the True Mission of KLA Flight 007" by Michelle Brun. An interesting book, but has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Toad


No offense but those two statements don't really match up.
[/B]

Sure they do.

I am Russian by birth, American by citizenship and residency. I consider both Russians and Americans as countrymen, and generally see their side of the coin before I see any other. When it comes to conflict between the two, I generally identify with the Americans because, quite frankly, they've been kinder and fairer to me and those important to me.

I guess it may not make sense to all, but it does to me.

[Ripsnort]

An exerpt from the book "Uncovering Soviet Disasters" by James Oberg:

All these incidents were only preludes to the worst air-

p. 46------------------

tragedy of the Soviet borders, the destruction of Korean Air Lines Flight 007 on September 1, 1983, with the loss of 269 lives. Although the Soviets claimed complete justification, while many Western groups saw it as a deliberate Communist atrocity, careful reconstruction of the incident makes it appear instead to be the worst foul-up of Soviet air defense technology in USSR history. The ultimate guilt is unavoidable: The Soviets shot to kill, all right, but irresponsibly they weren't careful to determine at whom they were shooting. All their expensive equipment and operators never provided data sufficiently convincing to dissuade them from their original instinctive (and wrong) judgment that the blip was an "American aggressor."

The bare facts of the September 1, 1983, KAL 007 disaster have been established, despite attempts by the Soviets and some assorted Western conspiracy enthusiasts to deflect responsibility. As with many airliners before and since, Flight 007 went off course through some unlikely but plausible combination of human errors and equipment problems. Tragically the accidental course deviation put it over Soviet territory.

The Soviets had numerous opportunities to identify the "bogey" as a lost civilian airliner but were unable to fulfill their responsibilities. As the airliner crossed the Kamchatka Peninsula, Soviet interceptors failed to reach it and make visual contact. Later, over Sakhalin Island, the Soviet pilots also nearly missed their intercept. When they finally caught up, there were only minutes remaining before the plane exited Soviet airspace.

In the rush the Soviet pilot let off a burst of cannon fire from a position behind and below the "target," where it was physically impossible for the Koreans to see it. No radio calls were heard by anyone in the area on the specified distress frequency of 121.5 megahertz. At one point the Russian pilot was abreast of (and a bit below) the airliner, but despite earlier experience with American RC-135s, he failed to notice -- or report -- the obvious visual differences (mostly in the running lights). This was especially true since the airliner's lights were flashing brightly, hardly the behavior of a stealthy intruder (to refute this obvious deduction, the Soviets later merely lied about the plane's flying "without lights").

With the border approaching and without ever having performed a proper communications procedure, the Soviets fell into the same routine as they had with the lost Argentine

p. 47 -----------

airliner two years earlier. The pilot, call sign "805," followed in the tradition of Kulyapin, Vegin, Yeliseyev, and nameless others. When in doubt, attack to kill. Don't let the "enemy" escape.

And that, horribly, is just what happened. Amazingly there were many people in the West who were surprised. Predictable, too, were the impassioned pronouncements that the Soviets must have known they were killing innocents when another appalling interpretation was that they didn't know--or care--at whom they were shooting, even though they should have been able to determine the aircraft's innocence. Presumption of guilt is easier and safer, at least from the Soviet point of view.

With KAL 007 and the other incidents, a pattern of Soviet claims is apparent. How is a dispassionate observer able to gauge the reliability of Soviet accounts when its side usually has the only surviving witnesses?

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Hortlund
The problem is that KAL 007 is not an isolated incident. There are litterary dozens of examples of russian forces opening fire on aircraft in international airspace.

And horrible as that may be, those acts are not representative of the ideals and beliefs of every individual Russian. If you dig a little deeper, and maybe speak to some Russians who've lived outside of Russia, I think you'll find that they're not too different from you, and will be more likely to agree than disagree with your views of their leadership.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund
So, we are looking at 6 battalions of infantry per kilometer of front-line. Im sure you can appreciate what that attack looks like to the German/Romanian defenders when it comes. 5-800 men per batallion gives 4 800 men per kilometer...or ~5 guys/meter. Naturally they will attack the normal soviet fashion in waves, meaning we divide this by three. But still we get more than one guy/meter. Along a 3,5 kilometer wide section of the front...you do the math Boroda.  

Yes they all come in formations to be shot down by machineguns, 5 guys per meter.

Are you serious or just kidding me?

In 1944 Soviet infantry advanced after the "wave of fire", supported by tanks that crushed what was left of enemy defense lines. LOL human waves in Yassy-Caeshinau operation!

Originally posted by Hortlund
And then you can ponder over this:

Translation is far from perfect, but generally: what's wrong about that? Stopping retreating infantry, like cold shower. Germans did exactly the same things. Better to leave them to be killed defenseless?

I don't think it was a common practice, look how surprised and disappointed the tank commander is.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
An exerpt from the book "Uncovering Soviet Disasters" by James Oberg:

Why not "Russians killed my nurse"?

Rip, Osipovich identified KAL007 as a "4-engined plane", that's all.